Evil Editor's Gallimaufry

Query Queue

2012-12-01T06:43:00.000-08:00

Below, listed in the order received, are the titles of books whose query letters have been submitted for ridicule, but which have not been critiqued.

In order to offer the "Guess the Plot" feature with each query critique, Evil Editor needs his minions to suggest amusing fake plots for the titles. Send your fake plots as comments to this post. Try to limit them to 50 words. Don't worry if your plot is ridiculous; the actual plots usually are, as well.

Titles will be added to the list as new query letters come in, so check back. If you would be heartbroken to submit a plot, only to find it wasn't used, don't participate. We don't want any hurt feelings out there.

Titles in green still need fake plots. Titles in red don't.

Bibs, Burps and Bottoms
Working Ghoul
Toni Valentine's Rent-a-Boy Service

We're getting low. It's the perfect time to submit that query. Yes, you.

Book Chat 47: Stefanie Pintoff/In the Shadow of Gotham

2012-01-27T06:15:00.000-08:00

Evil Editor said...This is the whole chat. Us.

ril said...Lucky I read the book, then.

Evil Editor said...I see this book is compared on the back cover to Caleb Carr's books. Ever read any of his?

ril said...Nope.

Evil Editor said...Me neither.

ril said...Actually, I think this is the first "detective" yarn I've read. Apart from maybe a couple of Agatha Christies years ago... And, of course, the complete "Alfred Hitchcock and the Three Investigators."

Evil Editor said...This might be my first historical detective yarn. Though I saw The Name of the Rose.

ril said...I found it quite entertaining and easy to read. Surprised it was an award winner, though.

Evil Editor said...The award was for best first mystery novel. Usually people who've had their 1st novel published are only to happy to show up at the book chat. I never got an answer.

ril said...Very mysterious.

Evil Editor said...Who does she think she is? I'm Evil Editor. This is worse than that hockey player who didn't go to the White House...Of course if she showed up and it was two people, she'd have left already.

ril said...Not if we tied her to a chair in the crypt.

Evil Editor said...I thought this was well done, though I felt like the guilty party didn't have a big enough role. I felt like I had to go back and see who that was. Trying not to give away whodunnit.

ril said...It seemed to have all the elements I would have expected from the genre. Clever detective, helpful amateur sidekick, multiple potential suspects, lots of red herrings, shirtwaists. There was some sleight of hand to hide the "twist" ending.

Evil Editor said...It seemed to be well researched re the geography of the city.

ril said...I thought early on the historical detail was a little heavy handed. It was like having a guided tour of a museum: and on the left, you will see a Hammond typewriter, quite typical of the period...

Evil Editor said...One could attribute the excessive detail to an attempt to write in the style popular at the time the book is set.

ril said...Possibly, yes. The voice did slip a little on occasion and there seemed to be a couple of anachronisms of speech, but on the whole she held it up pretty well. Some Amazon reviews complained of the stilted narrative, but it did feel somewhat authentic to the period.

ril said...I don't know if it was because I knew the writer was female, but it took a while to get used to the idea that the narrator was a male detective...Couldn't help imagining Alistair, the criminologist, as the guy at the start of the Rocky Horror Picture Show.

ril said...She didn't seem to quite know what to do with Joe. Made a big deal out of how he resented the up and coming young 'uns subordination and then followed him round like a puppy at the investigation scene. Then he disappeared for a while. And as soon as he reappeared he had a stroke to get him out of the way again...

Evil Editor said...That's true. That was set up to be a major source of conflict. Then poof.

ril said...On the other hand, if he'd stayed around, that might have seemed a tad cliched...

Evil Editor said...These chats go more efficiently when there are two. I've already said all I had to say. Which, as you may have noted, was pretty much nothing.

ril said...I assume there's potential for Alistair and Simon to solve a few more cases together. So long as Isabella doesn't come between them.

Evil Editor said...Are they in her second book? Ah I see she now has three books starring Simon and Alistair. Spoiler alert. Alistair isn't the murderer.

ril said...Probably needs another three to have a shot at TV...Maybe a bit slow for American TV, though? British TV loves Whodunnits.

Evil Editor said...Yes, we like our crime shows set to loud rock music. So loud you can't hear the dialogue.

ril said...I guess the closed captions cost so much they want everybody to use them?

Evil Editor said...I only use closed captions when I'm watching British whodunnits.

ril said...You can find out who dun it quicker that way...

Evil Editor said...I'm ready to call it a chat. In fact, I'm ready to call it the last chat.

Book Chat 46 Carrie Ryan/The Forest of Hands and Teeth

2012-01-07T10:22:00.000-08:00

Dave said...To start, I think this is a dark story and I'm wondering if I'm not having a generational reaction.

Robin Billings said...To Dave's point about 'dark' - I suppose it is dark, but I see a lot of darkness in the world, anyway - not morbidly, just realistically, so a dark novel doesn't worry me. And I like seeing a protagonist face that kind of thing, with difficulty, and find a way through it, ya know?

stacy said...Kids are growing up in dark times, IMHO.

Dave said...I'm not sure these times are dark just confused and dismal. I"ve been through dark times without hope and this isn't what I call dark times.

stacy said...Maybe. They feel pretty dark to me, though. But you're right that they could be a lot darker, Dave.

Evil Editor said...All our YA books have been dark. Hunger Games, Marbury Lens...was Graveyard Book YA?

Dave said...About 15 years ago I had to help home school my niece (being the scientist and engineer, the science fell to me) and she commented that my tastes in literature and poetry were too dark. (SO what If I like Sylvia Plath et. al.) So I stepped back from all that literature and guess what comes into vogue. That was the basis of my generational comment. These teens and YA seem to want dark and emotional stories.

Sylvia said...Just went searching for Scott Westerfeld's comment on the subject which I think helpls explain it: "Teenagers love a good apocalypse. Who doesn't? All those annoying rules suspended. Society's pretenses made irrelevant. Malls to be looted. School out forever."

Carrie Ryan said...re: it being a dark book. I get this a lot and I do think it's true to a certain extent. That world is a dark world -- there's always a threat of death and fear.

One of the things that really fascinates me is how people still find love and happiness during the most horrific circumstances. In war, in concentration camps, in famine-- there are families and love and compassion. It's sort of the opposite of the townsfolk pulling up the ladder to the platforms -- that in extreme times sometimes you can actually find the best in people.

I think for me there's comfort in this idea -- that we can go through horrible times but still find purpose and a full life.

Robin Billings said...Bookwise, I enjoyed the present-tense feel of this month's choice. Normally, I don't. But this was done very, very well. You keep picking them like this, EE, please.

stacy said...Me too, Robin. Normally not into present tense, but it worked really well in this book.

Evil Editor said...The Unconsecrated were done well. Very scary. I wasn't clear on whether Gabrielle, the fast one, was fast only in comparison, or fast like The Flash.

Robin Billings said...I was thinking 'by comparison', but I think that's because this world was drawn so well, it seemed like 'realistic rules' applied.

Evil Editor said...It just seemed if all the others were really slow, it would be easy to run away from them. Guess they were everywhere, so there was nowhere to run.

Dave said...I liked the writing in this book but not the situations. It's darker and more introspective than THE GRAVEYARD book. Also, I think I related to the boys in THE MARBURY LENS and I'm not relating to the girl in FOREST OF HANDS AND TEETH. Probably because I'm closer to the 17 year old hockey goalie and not the 13 year old niece who likes Hetalia manga.

stacy said...I thought the take on the zombie trope here was pretty fresh and original. Also, the scenes in this were so strong, I felt like I was watching a movie in my mind as I read. Good writing.

Sylvia said...I like dystopian, especially with a female protag, so this is exactly the kind of story I enjoy.

stacy said...Yeah, me too, Sylvia.

Robin Billings said...It's really well done, immediate entry into the world. As I said, normally this present tense style brings me out of a novel rather than placing me into it, but in this case, it worked well.

Evil Editor said...Was anyone else reminded of the scene in Titanic where the lifeboats wouldn't go back for more survivors, when the people on the platforms pulled up the ladders and left others below to fend for themselves?

Carrie Ryan said...That's a lot of what I was going for -- this idea that community can break down in life/death situations. I'm always fascinated by how people act under the most extreme circumstances and whether they'll risk themselves to help others.

stacy said...I didn't see Titanic. I think I'm the only American who didn't.

Sylvia said...I haven't seen the Titanic either. :)

Robin Billings said...I didn't see Titanic either, Stacy. Usually, if something is a 'must see', I make it a point not to see it.

Evil Editor said...It's important to be up on pop culture like Titanic so that you understand my jokes when I make fun of it.

Dave said...I did see Titanic and have seen it subsequently on Cable and yes, this has that dark, soul-tearing revelation that some must die.

Evil Editor said...I believe there will be a movie made from this book. Not sure what stage they're currently at.

Robin Billings said...Cool for the author!

stacy said...I read that the company who optioned it is fast-tracking it for a 2013 release date.

Carrie Ryan said...Yep, they've exercised the option. Beyond that, I'm not sure where things stand. IMDB said that filming would be starting early 2012 so I'm keeping my fingers very crossed :)

Evil Editor said...As I understand it there's a sequel and a prequel to this book. The prequel stars Tabitha. Don't know if the sequel has any of the same characters or if it's just set in the same world.

stacy said...I read the teasers, and it seems like they are set in the same world.

Carrie Ryan said...There's a prequel short story, HARE MOON, that you can get online as an eshort story. It's about Tabitha when she was Mary's age and shows a little more about how she came to be the way she is (she really fascinated me when I wrote her in FHT).

There are two sequels (or rather, companions): THE DEAD-TOSSED WAVES is told from the POV of Mary's daughter and is a generation later. THE DARK AND HOLLOW PLACES is more of a direct sequel to the second book.

There are also a lot of other short stories set in that world - mostly around the time of the Return: Bougainvillea in Zombies vs. Unicorns; A Game of Firsts in The First Time; a story in Defy the Dark (forthcoming); Scenic Route in Enthralled; Flotsam & Jetsam in Living Dead 2.

Evil Editor said...What exactly was the Return?

stacy said...I never really understood that either, EE.

Carrie Ryan said...The Return was the zombie apocalypse.

Dave said...There is a sense of camaraderie in MARBURY LENS that I didn't get here.

Evil Editor said...There was camaraderie among them all when they were growing up. The book picks up at the point when it all goes kablooey.

DAVE SAID...I thought the writing is this was magnificent and damn near perfection. It just flowed and worked so well as the story unfolded. Really well crafted.

Carrie Ryan said...WOW!! Thank you so much!!!

stacy said...Totally agree, Dave. The writing was stellar. The part where Sister Tabitha took Mary to the deep part of the Cathedral and threatened to dump her into the Forest scared the crap out of me.

Evil Editor said...That Tabitha scene was scary, and then, apparently, she actually does throw Gabrielle to the Unconsecrated.

Robin Billings said...A lot scared the crap out of me, Stace - a tribute to how well it's done, eh?! You BELIEVE.

stacy said...I gotta tell you: the scenes were totally clear in my head. Of course, I was seeing Amy Adams as Mary. Sister Tabitha was Meryl Streep. But I know my watching the movie DOUBT had some influence on that, for some reason. Oh yeah. I have to admit that at first, when I figured out what the Unconsecrated were, I thought, "Great. A zombie novel. Just great." But that thought was faint because I was already hooked.

SYLVIA SAID...I might just break down and buy the book - I think the narrator for the audio book doesn't have as intense a voice as you guys are reading it in.

Evil Editor said...Intense is a good description. I think it's the way the moaning of the zombies is always there, like cicadas, you kind of get used to it, but it's there in the back of your mind, 24/7, reminding you that you're a goner if you make one wrong step.

Robin Billings said...Yeah, and the anxiety of that watching out for yourself 24/7 is always there. Like undercurrent background music.

Dave said...Am I the only one who had Nuns in grade school and high school? They always tried to scare the kids into behaving with threats of hell and rulers and other garbage things. That didn't impress me, it just aggravated me into remembering why a classmate just admitted these many years later that they drank through HS. I can present some really unkind examples if you want but I grew up with that frigid, cold hateful and mean discipline.

stacy said...I didn't have nuns in school, but I did have a really mean second grade teacher. Mrs. Gwaltney. She should have been a prison warden instead.

Evil Editor said...One of my teachers burned a student alive the first day of class. I gotta admit the rest of us all behaved the rest of the year.

stacy said...Where were you, EE? Slytherin?

Robin Billings said...I loathe nuns. 8 years of them in grade school. Ewwwww.

Dave said...Sister Tabitha is up there with the dark and brooding "you must do it this way, soullessly and mindlessly, because we know its the only way. It just destroys your self-confidence. That may be what this is, one girls search for self-confidence and the meaning of life. I don't mean that sarcastically or mockingly, either. I mean that in the best sense I can put it.

stacy said...I think that's pretty much the theme of the novel, Dave. Good description.

Sylvia said...Nuns and penguins. Growing up I knew they existed but I never actually saw one except now and then on a documentary. Just totally removed from my life.

stacy said...It really hit home for me how people—prior to our modern existence—really needed strict rules of conduct for survival. All those little pagan mating rituals that wove their way in through all the religious stuff.

Carrie Ryan said...This was another issue I was exploring. I never wanted the Sisterhood to be just plain evil -- I think they were strict because they felt it was the only way to keep the villagers safe. Yes, they lied and manipulated, but that's how they felt they'd survive. So in my mind, they acted out of love.

Evil Editor said...When they got to the new village, why were all the zombies indoors? Did they all get together and decide to lay a trap?

Carrie Ryan said...My zombies aren't sentient so they couldn't plan like that. I think some of them were outside but "downed" and others were inside. I think it just depends on where they were when they "downed." Some of them might have been infected when the village turned and trapped themselves inside to be safe, only to then Return, etc. Does that make sense?

Dave said...In other thoughts, I gave this book away as a gift at Christmas. I haven't heard anything about it. My Nephew's girl is 13 and I expect to hear nothing from her. Teens don't speak to Aunts and Uncles these days. They save their minds for important things like twitter and FB with their peers.

Evil Editor said...Now that she reached the ocean, and it looks like there's hope, should she try to go back and get the dog and the kid and her friends?

stacy said...Maybe we'll find out in the sequel.

Dave said...I"m not sure where it would go. Taking a boat out on a sea you've just discovered is a feat all by itself.

stacy said...She could put more Unconsecrated out in the ocean. Zombie sharks.

Evil Editor said...It would be interesting to see what happened in a big city. Is everyone a zombie? Are there thousands living in skyscrapers? Did the military try and fail to wipe out the unconsecrated?

Carrie Ryan said...This is where the third book (THE DARK AND HOLLOW PLACES) is set :)

Robin Billings said...I'm glad there was hope at the end - if there hadn't been, there would've been no reason to the journey, for me. And I like the idea of an island being a sanctuary of sorts.

Carrie Ryan said...I'm glad you saw the hope!! I meant for there to be hope :)

re: And I like the idea of an island being a sanctuary of sorts. That's the idea behind my short story Bougainvillea in Zombies v. Unicorns -- whether an island would work long term.

Dave said...I don't know if I could write something as dark as that second season of WALKING DEAD where they spent all that time looking for the child and that other event, the "kneecapping"...

stacy said...I haven't seen much of the Walking Dead. Is it good? Whoops. I mean, I haven't seen WALKING DEAD. Unfortunately, I've seen a lot of the Walking Dead here in Chicago. Heh heh.

Evil Editor said...The walking dead is scary. The zombies are realistic, but not as plentiful as in this book.

Carrie Ryan said...I'm also a huge fan of Walking Dead -- I started reading the graphic novels when they first came out and I've loved how they've grown so mainstream :)

Dave said...WALKING DEAD is spectacular but draining. It is relentlessly dark as civilization and society crumble before your eyes. I mean shatters rather than crumbles. And every so often, they rip out your heart with something so cold and despair-ful that you gotta cringe.

Carrie Ryan said...Hopefully that answers your questions! I'll keep checking back to see if there's more discussion or more questions! Thanks!

Book Chat 45 Michael Chabon/The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay

2011-12-12T11:28:00.000-08:00

This was among my favorite Book Chat books, and I highly recommend it. Unfortunately, no one who'd read the book made the chat, so it was cancelled. Comments below were made after the fact.

150 said...I appreciated that even with the superhero focus, he still made room to mention my favorite vintage genre of comics, the romance.

Zachary Gole said...He did his research on comics very thoroughly, I think, and aside from the invention of Empire Comics and the other work of the titular protagonists, he stuck pretty close to fact. Romance comics were an important part of the industry at the time, so it made sense they'd be mentioned in the book.

One thing I thought was interesting is that Michael Chabon apparently likes making up his own words. There were a few words I didn't recognize and on Googling them (after failing to find them in a dictionary) I discovered that the reason I didn't recognize them was because Chabon had (by his own admission) invented them. Three I remember were "aetataureate", "cheminations", and "busculation", though there may have been more.

Ah, yes, here's an article online where he makes some reference (in the last footnote) to his invented words, though I don't think all the words he lists there are from The Amazing Adventures of Kavalier & Clay—I gather that he's slipped invented words into some of his other works as well. As someone who also occasionally enjoys inventing his own words, I appreciated knowing there was a successful and respected author who shared my proclivity.

ril said...All of Chabon's works will become available as e-books from now into 2012:

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/michael-chabon-e-book-rights-153304102.html

Book Chat 44: David Gordon/The Serialist

2011-11-05T10:26:00.000-07:00

Evil Editor said...This book reminded me, maybe just in tone, of two books we did earlier this year, Kockroach and Beat the Reaper.

stacy said...It reminded me of Beat the Reaper as well. I liked the ode this book made to pulp fiction. It was a good read.

David Gordon said...good morning everybody....you can stop talking about me behind my back.

stacy said...We'll probably save that for later, David. hee hee hee

Evil Editor said...Thanks for coming. Here's hoping a few more trickle in soon.

vkw said...Hi David, thank you for coming.

David Gordon said...hi....thank you for reading.

Evil Editor said...So, the excerpts from Harry's writing career. Did you write those specifically for this book, or had you already written them?

David Gordon said...Specifically for the book...I briefly tried looking at an attempted prior vampire story but I realized that while they had to seem like excerpts no actual excerpt could work, at least not such a short one.....I needed bits that felt like excerpts but that also stood alone, like little stories

vkw said...Harry is a fascinating character on one hand, I thought he was very billiant, on the other hand, not so much. But, he seemed always quite practical. David, can you tell us more about developing Harry for this novel?

David Gordon said...Well I'm curious about how you mean brilliant and practical...I had the general idea for the plot...a porn writer is approached by a famous prisoner who is a fan...for a long time...but I didn't really feel like writing it...then as time went by I kept sort of thinking of other things....such as the bit about having multiple pulp series going....or using his mom's name...or tutoring...and thinking, oh that could be the same guy....at a certain point I started to get a sense of Harry and his voice in my head then I could write it.

vkw said...Harry did brilliant and practical things - like he always called the cops and he was able to put clues together rather quickly. His relationship with Claire was so charming and lovely. But he was unlucky in love and lived with his mom and I think he could have been a great writer but kind of settled a bit.

David Gordon said...Yes vkw I agree. I wanted a "writer" character who was depressed, broke, kind of feeling like a failure...but who still cared about books etc. It made it more interesting. Like OK, now what does it mean to be a writer? Also making him unlucky in love I think positioned him to be the right protagonist for the creepy adventure he has. Another guy, lets say a ladies man type, would have a whole different story.

stacy said...Harry does seem to get a bit tripped up by what he perceives as his own shortcomings.

David Gordon said...Yes definitely, Stacy. He is tougher on himself than I'd be.

vkw said...Exactly, he was hard on himself even though I think his writing success was quite good.

David Gordon said...If I met someone who'd written all those sci fi and crime books I'd be very impressed.

Evil Editor said...And porn. Don't forget the porn.

stacy said...Yeah, I was working my way around to that in what was hopefully a polite way. : ) I loved how Claire talked him into ghostwriting her papers and totally became his agent. Every writer needs a Claire!

Evil Editor said...Claire was a doll. I have a thing for brilliant girls ever since reading The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie & sequels.

stacy said...Claire was great!

David Gordon said...Haha. Yes, I slowly fell in love with Claire too and kept adding more scenes with her.

stacy said...I liked Dani as well, though she clearly (and understandably) had a few issues. Her line about luggage and "Everyone carries their own" was pure gold. That's so true, especially in relationships.

vkw said...I think he was unlucky in love because his love interest was, well rather shallow and uninteresting. So, he chose unwisely. But, he thought it was about him, even though part of him knew she was shallow and uninteresting. He was a very interesting character.

stacy said...I didn't see Dani as shallow or uninteresting. Given that her twin was brutally murdered, I could totally see how she went the route that she did and how that would have driven her a little crazy. I think Claire was a little off base about Dani's motives—although Dani didn't seem to be totally aware of why she was getting involved with the investigation.

vkw said...I wasn't referring to Dani as being uninteresting, but rather Harry's ex-girlfriend that he still held a torch for. Dani was clearly "not all there", but not uninteresting.

David Gordon said...Regarding Harry and his love life too, I also feel like I focused in a certain, particularly difficult part of his life in order to help the story. I even hold out the possiblity that something could happen with Teresa later. So his depression, his friendship with Claire, his affair with Dani...that might all look different in a few years.

vkw said...Harry's huge character flaw, in my mind, is that cared way too much about what other people thought about him. So, when he thought others looked down on him like his snobbish ex for being a hack writer, he was dissappointed in himself. But when he went to the vampire party or saw people reading his book or when someone shook his hand even though he wasn't a gorrilla size harlem protecter, he felt better about himself and he was bit shocked as well.

David Gordon said...Yes VKW I agree. That's an example of where my view of Harry is not his own.

stacy said...David, did you do any ghostwriting prior to writing this book? I noticed in your bio that you've worked in a lot of different fields.

David Gordon said...Yes! I did some "ghostwriting." No famous people or anything, but I helped all sorts of people write and often rewrite texts, speeches, papers, articles. I wrote ad copy and pr copy and quarterly reports. I edited theses. I also wrote porn. I was an editor at Hustler and Chic and also wrote a lot for Barely Legal. If anyone knows what those are. ;)

Evil Editor said...Of course we do. I'm probably very familiar with your work.

stacy said...Very funny, EE. I actually thought the porn excerpts in the book were hilarious.

David Gordon said...Stacy I'm glad you laughed. Most of the time writing porn, I was really trying to make my friends in the office laugh.

vkw said...That's impressive. Not many people can say they edited theses and wrote porn.

David Gordon said...Haha. Well I always say my resume looks like a maniac's life unless you add -- really a novelist trying to pay rent.

Evil Editor said...Are you working on another Harry/Claire novel, or are you on to something different?

David Gordon said...I am finishing -- he said optimistically -- another book right now. It is a thriller but different, more Hitchcock maybe, I hope, anyway and set in LA.

Evil Editor said...Sounds like Rear Window, but the guy in the back apartment is a serial killer. Every night Jimmy Stewart sees him kill someone else, but no one will believe him.

Evil Editor said...I applaud you for writing a mystery in which there are twins and the live one doesn't turn out to be the dead one. Don't think it's ever been done before.

David Gordon said...Thanks EE. Part of the fun/challenge of writing a "genre" book was figuring out how to deal with the necessary but somewhat stock characters and situations. I decided to just embrace it but then do my best to give everybody some kind of spin.

stacy said...I think you did a good job of bending all the characters a bit.

stacy said...David, this seemed to be an ode to pulp fiction, like that written by Raymond Chandler and Dashiell Hammett. You a fan?

David Gordon said...Oh yes, very much a fan. I love those books and still read a lot of mysteries and crime. I reread all of Chandler while writing this.

Evil Editor said...The contrast between the humor and the horrible things done to the victims . . . just when we think we're in a quirky little mystery, suddenly we're hit in the face with entrails.

David Gordon said...Yes EE I like that sudden switch between humor and horror or just darkness or sadness. I like it in art and also feel like it is true to life.

vkw said...I was disappointed when Harry didn't get to write the novel and didn't become a millionaire. I really liked him and really saw his potential. It just seemed like he should have had a big "win".

David Gordon said...haha well I try to imply that the book you are reading is sort of his "novelized" version of events. That's why I gave actual dates and made up sounding names that he changed "to protect people." But for me his victory is deciding that writing another vampire book is ok too.

stacy said...Nothing wrong with vampire books. The good ones, anyway.

stacy said...The humor came through in the characters and the absurdity of what Harry was doing as a writer (or at least, he seemed to feel it was absurd). I was a bit sad that his professional life didn't change much by the end, but it also felt appropriate.

David Gordon said...Thanks. I struggled with that a lot. And worried about it. I also worried about how long it takes for people to start dying. Haha. But these things were inherent in my idea, there was no way around them, so I just embraced it.

David Gordon said...And like I said, I wanted to stick up for the pulp writers. I actually think Hammett is about as good as it gets.

Evil Editor said...No movie is as true to the novel as The Maltese Falcon.

Evil Editor said...I can't remember another serial killer book in which the serial killer is in jail the whole time. And yet he still gives you the chills and the belief that he's orchestrating everything makes him seem just as dangerous.

stacy said...I agree, EE.

stacy said...About how many months (or years) did you spend writing this novel?

David Gordon said...The book took about 2 years altogether. Writing it, revising it and then later, a few months working with the editor.

stacy said...I totally didn't see X as the second killer.

David Gordon said...Stacy: Oh good! I'm glad you were surprised. That is the sort of thing that is impossible to tell. Nothing is really surprising to me by draft ten or whatever.

David Gordon said...Though I did try to play fair and leave clues.

Evil Editor said...With a name like X, you're pretty much destined to be a serial killer.

David Gordon said...haha Yeah I had fun with the names and titles and such. I take a childish pleasure in that stuff.

David Gordon said...Yes. Well I knew some people would guess, some not, and some don't care, but I wanted to offer up a real mystery with clues, suspects, an explanation etc.

Evil Editor said...No one guessed. A few will claim they guessed. But they're lying.

stacy said...The biggest clue was Y. I kind of smacked my forehead when you revealed who it was. Though in a way I was gratified to see that Harry worked it out first.

vkw said...I was surprised that it was X. I thought it was going to be Z, or A, or B. Then there was always the vague possibility that C. But, figuring out mysteries, isn't my strength. I just figure everyone is guilty until the author tells me otherwise. I do admit I didn't think it was X.

David Gordon said...VKW I agree. I usually lose track or just take the ride myself....or when I guess right but it's not really deduction, just the cynicism of knowing the killer can't be found on page 50 or whatever. I tried to work that into Harry. He writes these books but has no idea how to solve a crime. Then he does.

Evil Editor said...My theory was that the killer was D. The possibility E was innocent was way down on my list, but good that you kept it alive. E could have written to F and ordered him/her to follow Harry around and kill G, H and I.

David Gordon said...Yes EE I definitely tried to present that option. Also A, etc.

fairyhedgehog said...I've just realised that I'd got the time wrong and missed the chat or most of it. Sorry. It's the clocks going back that did it.

stacy said...Yeah, A was the red herring. It's left me wondering why Q.

vkw said...I figured it out about 3/4 of the way through when I was really into the novel and wanted to know who the killer and skipped to the end and read a few pages. then I went back and fitted all the new clues together perfectly. Don't be offended, I read movie synoposis before seeing a movie. Surprise isn't a motivator for me. Yes, I did open my christmas presents before christmas.

David Gordon said...That's ok VKW. My book opens with a passage about peeking ahead so sort of assumed a few people would.

Evil Editor said...It was made clear why M at some point, but now I've forgotten.

stacy said...It was made clear why? I must've missed that.

David Gordon said...Because A is paranoid and ever since P, R.

stacy said...Oh, right. I think that was mentioned at some point in the book.

Evil Editor said...Now that I think about it, if I were Harry, finding N would have made me assume a certain person was the killer, not just add them to my list of possible suspects.

fairyhedgehog said...What struck me most was how real it felt - at the beginning I had to keep checking back as to whether the author really had written all those other books!

fairyhedgehog said...I didn't think I'd get the book read in time but when it came to it I couldn't put it down.

David Gordon said...Thanks FHH! That seems like the perfect reaction to me!

fairyhedgehog said...But I did skip the gory bits. I didn't want to have nightmares!

Evil Editor said...Of course, the REAL reason is so we'll think A is the killer.

David Gordon said...Yes of course EE, I needed red herrings and twists. Though I try to have Harry hint even at that sort of thing too.

fairyhedgehog said...I had no idea "who dunnit" but I didn't mind - I was enjoying the ride. And we were given enough clues that when we found out it was L it was an "aha!" moment, not a "wtf?" one.

David Gordon said...I'm glad FHH. I tried to play fair in that way. I am certainly the artsy literary type but I wanted my mystery to be real one with clues and an answer.

fairyhedgehog said...I loved the bit about "why do we read?" - I dogeared the page so I could find it again, which is something I haven't done in decades! "When I read, the words on the page replace the voice in my head and I cease, for a little while, to be me..." Oh yes.

David Gordon said...Thanks FHH. Really to me this book is almost more about being a reader than a writer.

stacy said...What cracked me up were the little "societies" based on his mother's ghostwriting personality. The only thing that was missing was the fan fiction. : )

David Gordon said...Stacy I had a fantasy of posting Harry's various "series" online and letting other people finish the stories but I dont think I'm popualr enough yet. It would just be sad.

stacy said... although I think it's kind of neat when people make or join groups based on how strongly they feel about a writer.

vkw said...Will we get to read about Harry in a sequel?

David Gordon said...I have no plans for a sequel but I could be swayed by popular demand.

stacy said...Really? I think you did a pretty good set up at the end for a sequel.

Evil Editor said...The four of us don't constitute popular demand, but we're just the four who remembered to show up. Others read the book.

fairyhedgehog said...So, we need a David Gordon fan club to ensure a sequel then!

Evil Editor said...Nero Wolfe and Stephanie Plum started with one book.

David Gordon said...Yes, well I'm writing a new book and it is a mystery, but as much as I love reading series I never imagined characters going on myself. I would be interested in trying. Though when I think Rex Stouts and Simenons....I can't imagine thinking up 50 of these things.

fairyhedgehog said...I enjoyed it too when the narrator tells us that he's come to the part he always dreads "when the plot needs to snap together and resolve itself". (Poor little dogeared book!)

stacy said...Me too. Though I feel that way pretty much all the way through writing a book. : )

David Gordon said...haha yes FHH, that became my solution for the difficult parts to write....I could say, this is a difficult part.

fairyhedgehog said...I'm gutted that I was waiting for the chat to start and it had started. Maths skills are clearly not my strong point.

vkw said...It was a good book and this was a good chat, I feel a tiny bit sorry for those that missed it. Their loss. Thank you for joining us and I really would like to read more about Harry.)

stacy said...The book was a really great read and it's definitely one I'll be passing on to others. I'm glad we got the opportunity to pick your brain a bit. Thanks for chatting with us!

fairyhedgehog said...Thank you so much, David, for coming to chat to us. It's been great reading all your comments and replies.

David Gordon said...Thank you all. I really appreciate it. Most of time we write things and never hear back!

Book Chat 43 Naomi Novik/His Majesty's Dragon

2011-10-01T10:22:00.000-07:00

Evil Editor said...Welcome, chatticts.

stacy said...Chatticts? Is that even a word?

Evil Editor said...I thought it was less offensive than chattel.

Dave Fragments said...A book with dragons and sailing ships. I always wanted a sailboat. Not one of those motorized stinkpots but a true sailing ship.

vkw said...sailing boats, napoleon, war and dragons. It's like cowboys and aliens.

Evil Editor said...I thought the dragons were a lot like dogs. Talking dogs. But smarter. And bigger.

vkw said...I was thinking the same EE about the dragons being like dogs but they talk and had an intimacy with their riders. I started to see them more like best friends, spouses or even like children.

Dave Fragments said...I thought that Temeraire grew up from young thoughts to older thoughts and there was a difference between human friendships and this dragon friendship/faithful bond that it forms with humans.

vkw said...There was a relationship difference between the riders/dragons than between friends/riders. However, there is a commitment and intimacy between individuals with their families as compared to individuals with their co-workers. I think Ms. Novik did well demonstrating that.

Dave Fragments said...There's a lot of old language in this. It's not filled with modernism and colloquial phrases. I like that.

Evil Editor said...Do you think the author read lots of books written in the time of Napoleon in order to perfect the style of the book?

stacy said...I imagine she reads a lot from that time period. Felt pretty authentic to me.

vkw said...I loved the voice. I read the author's bio and naomi novik has had an interest is napoleonic history for a long time. She combined her interest with this era and fantasy.

Dave Fragments said...I think she has a good set of BETA readers and lots of editing to get that voice. To remove the modern is as hard as using a consistent tone of gloom or cheery comedy.

Evil Editor said...If Novik knew how attached the reader would become to the dragons, she would have killed off Rankin instead of Levitas.

vkw said...Dragon lovers always understand how much readers love dragons. Fantasy became my genre of choice when I read the series Dragonriders of Pern as a young adolescent. I avoided dragon stories after that because I loved the way dragons and their riders were written in the series. Never thought an author could do better. Ms. Novik did a very good job, excellent. As for killing off Levitas, I didn't like it but it's reality. People/dragons we love, die.

Dave Fragments said...The relationships we see are ones that are all around us and we accept the differences without seeing the differences. Think of the contrast between movies like MASTER AND COMMANDER and TOP GUN to make it easy on myself. The airmen are brash and wild and rude. The seamen are principled and daring. Both are good but vastly different. We see the clash of two cultures - Air versus naval and upper versus lower class and duty combined with honor.

stacy said...I've often wondered how dragons even entered folklore. Makes me wonder if someone strayed across a full set of dinosaur bones in Cro-magnon times and came up with the idea.

Evil Editor said...Dragons are to dinosaurs as elephants are to mice. Maybe a Cro Magnon stumbled across a Boeing 747.

Dave Fragments said...In folklore, I would start in China where the legends go back to creation (I think) and then to the Vikings and (I think thor's hammer) where the final battle between the gods has this giant snake Jörmungandr and Midgard and the Rainbow Bridge. There's also a Mexican element with Quetzalcoatl that I can't speak to now.

vkw said...I've thought about that too Stacy. How did dragons come to be? But more importantly, where can I get one? :) I'm not kidding, although I imagine they are very expensive to own. That may mean that only the very wealthy could own dragons.

Evil Editor said...Having to feed your pet a few cows and sheep every day would get expensive. Although they could fly off to a ranch and feed themselves.

stacy said...That was one part of the book that made me a little uncomfortable. I mean, I know they weren't real cows and such, but I did feel a little sorry for them. But then, the dragons were just being dragons.

Evil Editor said...I agree, Stacy. It was like people who toss a hamster in the cage with their pet snake.

vkw said...Sure your dragon could feed itself, but no doubt the dragon would just go to the ranch next door. We would be warring with our neighbors all the time rather than the french. Our neighbors would shoot at our dragons and we shoot at their dragons. Very messy. I suspect that it would be better to have dragons under the care of the government who can care for dragons. This would be especially the case considering they live for centuries. Of course, if you owned a dragon, you would have to will it to your children or survivors. That could be the beginning of a novel.

Evil Editor said...If there were dragons in the real world, would they have been hunted to extinction by now?

vkw said...No, we tend not to kill off our children or dogs. Although sometimes we mistreat them and their are laws to protect them.

Dave Fragments said...My brother and a few of my neighbors keep horses and I've been around at feeding time. If you love the pet or take car of such a huge animal, you keep it healthy and clean.

stacy said...If there were dragons in the real world, so much about our world would be different. Would there have even been a WWII? If so, would the outcome have been different?

Evil Editor said...Would Hitler's dragon have been attached to him or would he have dropped Hitler in the middle of the ocean?

vkw said...I am not sure about Hitler. Sure he was beyond cruel. Had no conscience. No moral compass. Ok he was a psychopath - however, I bet he would make sure his dragon was well cared for. Probably chop off the head of anyone who didn't care for his dragon.

stacy said...I don't know. Hitler was pretty freaking mean. Chances are he would have mistreated his dragon. I vote his dragon would have dropped him.

vkw said...Hitler's dragon would have attached to him, just like children attach to horrid parents and dogs worship their owners without fault.

stacy said...Maybe, vkw. I'd have a hard time believing a dragon would accept mistreatment from a handler. This hypothetical discussion is getting a little surreal.

Evil Editor said...If you were Laurence's girlfriend, would you have been willing to stick with him, or would you have been too jealous of Temeraire?

stacy said...I think if I were Laurence's girlfriend, I would have accepted Temeraire, possibly even loved him, too.

vkw said...I think Laurence was better off without the girlfriend. It didn't seem like a very committed relationship to begin with. I think Laurence was unconsciously pleased he didn't have to settle for her. I would have dumped Laurence just because he was away for long periods-years as it was. I didn't like the manner that the parents were depicted. They were rather cold fish.

stacy said...vkw, I agree the parents were cold fish. But I think it was consistent with their class and breeding from that time. I did feel that the aviators could have been more lively and roguish in the beginning. I felt like that was a bit more explained rather than shown. For the first half of the novel or so, everyone seemed so damned polite, even the dragons. Not quite halfway through, I was thinking a dragon mistakenly or not so mistakenly eating a person would liven things up.

Evil Editor said...Levitas should have eaten Rankin. I don't imagine he'd have tasted any worse than a live sheep.

vkw said...I think Levitas dragon friends should have accidentally stepped on Rankin. And Rankin's "friends" should have seen to it that he "slipped" in the tubs and drowned. After, of course, they warned him that people that don't treat their dragon well - slip in tubs of the time. Rather sad, but too bad.

Dave Fragments said...Laurence's girlfriend is true to the Victorian era. Laurence was a young man who had seen action at sea and was in line to be Captain of a prestige ship, a big one, possibly one of he 78 or 90 gun ships of the line. Being the wife of a ship's captain would make her a Lady to Contend with at all levels of society. Being the wife of an airman who kept a carnivorous beast in the back yard and might be found whoring and drinking with his buddies did not mover her up in society. It did not make her a lady. One of the more telling lines that Laurence thinks or says, is that not even the lowest mate on a ship would leave the decks strewn with dirt and garbage. they clean the decks every morning and function in relative cleanliness.

Evil Editor said...The Temeraire series has something like seven books in it. So far. Anyone read beyond this one?

Dave Fragments said...I haven't read any more yet. I might buy them for myself for Christmas. I like that Naomi Novik didn't blow the entire storyline in the first novel. Temeraire has barely come of age in this story. I had some bad thoughts when I realized that we were starting with the hatching of an egg but there is sufficient story and culture clash to hold the novel together. That's one thing that writers struggle with in the stories and novels I read. What is one episode for a chapter or short story or how broad a sweep of history is appropriate for how many words.

vkw said...I do think I may see about reading more in the series.

Dave Fragments said...This story is very much like that Victorian romance we read a few months ago. It is a novel of manners and airs.

Evil Editor said...The Iron Duke had mechanical airships instead of dragons. It's easier for the reader to get attached to a dragon. But the premise is the same: alternate history in which air travel was available in earlier times.

vkw said...I agree with Dave. This book was very good because of the manners and airs and the time period it was set in.

stacy said...I get that, but I think in a novel with dragons and ships, I would have liked to have seen a little more action throughout. Just seems to me a world with dragons would be a little more roguish. I dunno. Maybe that's the writer in me coming out. "I would have done it this way."

Evil Editor said...I thought Temeraire was a little TOO smart when he hatched. All he'd heard through his egg was stuff like Avast ye lubbers, and Holy crap! A French frigate! Yet he was fluent in eight languages. Or whatever.

stacy said...Yeah, EE, and I think I would have liked to see him start off a little feral. Not to compare to something completely unrelated, but one of the things that made the love between Buck and his owner stronger in THE CALL OF THE WILD was that Buck was so wild prior to meeting him. I think, for me, a less polite and wilder Temeraire—something that Laurence would have had to reign in and protect—would have been more ... satisfying. Then again ... maybe that would have been cliché.

Dave Fragments said...Look at the differences in breeding -- Temeraire was bred for intelligence, speed and maneuverability. It loved learning and reading. The other dragons were much simpler in outlook and made to be beasts of burden in some cases. Even in the climactic battle, Temeraire is different from the others and its weapon is not one of blood but of air.

vkw said...Dave is right about the breeding. In this way, the dragons were like canines and bred for specific puposes. Breeding leads to some unwanted characteristics like being a bit soft in the head. I've known a few dumb dogs.

Evil Editor said...Why is the title His Majesty's Dragon? Aren't all the dragons his majesty's dragons?

vkw said...Because the dragon is pressed into his Majesty's service as is his rider? Because the egg was stolen from a dictator and when hatched the dragon is pressed into the monarchy? Perhaps it's just a good-sounding title?

Dave Fragments said...I read a bit that bears on the title. You have to look up the origin of "Temeraire" as a ship of the line. IT is a real ship that the Brits sailed. The source of the name is of importance. The original Temeraire was a French ship, captured by the Brits. Now in the British Isles, this book is titled "Temeraire" and being a seafaring nation to this day, they know the history where us landlubbers in the middle of the colonies, don't. I know a pile of crap about Napoleonic era and the culture of ships at sea. MOBY DICK, THE PERFECT STORM, Hornblower and Master and Commander, and go back to Shogun all fascinate me as being of other times and the gaps in my learning.

stacy said...I've started both MOBY DICK and MASTER AND COMMANDER. But I'm having a hard time NOT seeing Russell Crowe in the M&C book in my mind. Not that I'm complaining.

Evil Editor said...Are all dragons pressed into military service? Levitas was more courier, but still, for the military. Seems like someone would have started a FedEx-like company if dragons were available to more than the air force. Or dragon rides at the faire.

stacy said...Right on, EE. Maybe there's more of those things in subsequent books.

vkw said...I wonder if there can be a fed/ex delivery service. Again the cost of caring for a dragon may not make a delivery system cost efficient. I think perhaps that only governments can afford to keep dragons. Perhaps citizens are not allowed to have dragons and if they become a rider of one are pressed into service?

stacy said...True, vkw. That FedEx company might find itself in the same position our Post Office is in now.

Dave Fragments said...Can we ask the question a different way? Were all sailing ships part of the war fleet during Lord Nelson's time? What was the role of merchant vessels? I think dragons are like that.

Evil Editor said...Dragons did deliver the mail to ships as I recall. They'd be a great pony express-like service. One of you write a book in which dragons exist in the old west and put the pony express out of business.

stacy said...They would get that mail delivered fast.

vkw said...The dragons did deliver the mail to the ships. But that still makes them government employees.

stacy said...I think the ponies would get eaten.

vkw said...Didn't the pony express last a year? Just over a year? Short book.

Evil Editor said...The discussion never would have veered off like this if the author had shown up. Let that be a lesson to future authors chosen for chats.

stacy said...We're so great at the hypotheticals, though.

Evil Editor said...BTW, two of our next three authors have agreed to attend.

stacy said...I'm guessing one of them is not named Michael Chabon?

Evil Editor said...Good guess. Just couldn't find any contact information.

Dave Fragments said...Ms Novik leaves a bit of the care and feeding of dragons to the unexplained. The feeding is mentioned once because they speculate how Napoleon could assembled forty (I think) dragons together to fly the troop transports across the channel. Feeding logistics is particularly mentioned.

vkw said...Imagine for a moment how difficult it is to feed and move an army and how often this was the downfall of many armies. Now imagine the logistics of feeding forty dragons every day, on average two cows each. that is eighty cows per day and in a week that is 560. I am not good with math or economics but that's a lot of cows. Are slaughter cows about $300, today? Wonder how much they cost back then?

Evil Editor said...I think a cow costs closer to $1000 these days.

Sarah Laurenson said...Chiming in way late, of course.

I loved this book and have devoured the rest of the series except the last one. But I also cut my reading teeth on Horatio Hornblower and I collect dragons (of the pewter variety).

This series is more similar to Horatio Hornblower than to say Alexander Kent's Richard Bolitho series. Hornblower is more about philosophy and dealing with internal fears. Bolitho is more action oriented.

So I got a very Hornblower voice from this series, but the dragons added a deeper element and the wider philosphical debate on slavery. She ticked almost all of my interest boxes with these books.

As for the title, I think it's the main issue for Temeraire since he isn't sure he wants to be one of His Majesty's dragons.

And the reason he spoke so many languages had to do with what was said to him while he was still in the egg in China and being transferred to the French.

When you get deeper in, you see a lot of differences in the Chinese and how they handle dragons as a part of society.

Book Chat 42 Leslie D. Soule/Fallenwood

2011-09-03T19:49:00.000-07:00

Fairyhedgehog said...I was surprised that Ash didn't get to go home at the end and resolve her problems in our world. I'm wondering if that will happen in a sequel, or if there's going to be an indefinite number of sequels.

Evil Editor said...Or if she prefers Fallenwood and will stay there forever.

Falcondraco said...Well I'm gonna have her return to the real world in the sequel, and then come back to Fallenwood. That's the plan anyway. I've only got a little bit of the sequel written so far. Classes have been taking up a lot of my time lately. But if you guys have any suggestions for the sequel, please let me know!

stacy said...I'd like to see Ash solve some of her problems in her own world. That's kind of where I was expecting the end of this book to go.

Falcondraco said...Thanks Stacy! Do you mean her own personal/relationship problems, or emotional issues/baggage, or larger global/social problems?

stacy said...Mostly her personal and emotional problems, which seem to be tied together. Or at least, she learns from it. But there's really no way to direct the plot, I don't think. It's gonna go where it goes. But that's just what I expected things to go in this book. Doesn't mean that's "right" or that's where things are going to go.

Evil Editor said...You don't HAVE to write a sequel. Is this a world you want to explore more?

Falcondraco said...Yeah, I definitely want to explore Fallenwood more. And...I wasn't going to write a sequel at first, but it's been gradually writing itself in little snippets. So now it's to where I'm saying to myself, "How can I NOT write this?" :)

Fairyhedgehog said...I'm curious as to what happens now that all magic has gone from the world, although I thought that the way Ash won over Akaji suggested that maybe her type of magic still existed. Unless his counterpart in another world just suddenly died but that would be a big coincidence. I wonder if the author could say a bit more about how the system of magic works in her world.

Falcondraco said...Oh. Ok. Great question! Well, in the system I devised for Fallenwood, the magic of the planet is channeled through the crystal (in the sequel you'll get to find out that the one crystal in Fallenwood wasn't the only one, so magic still exists - it's just that Ash doesn't know that). Magic can be used by those who are born into it (like Terces even though he never uses it) or you can become a magic user by touching one of the crystals.

Fairyhedgehog said...Yes, along the same lines as Robin's question, I was wondering what fantasy books you like to read. I was going to ask about "influences" but I'm not sure that is always easy to work out.

Falcondraco said...Thanks Fairyhedgehog! Actually, for one of my classes, I had to come up with an annotated bibiliography of influences. *pulls out binder*
Here's the list I came up with for that:
-The Lord of the Rings
-Shakespeare's "Macbeth" and "Hamlet"
-Oedipus Rex (deals with the whole "fate" issue)
-Brian Jacques's Redwall series

-I love Harry Potter. I've read all the books of that series.
-Nocturne by Louise Cooper
I have a few other books on there, but they're more contemporary novels and books on writing and such.

Evil Editor said...I love it when the black unicorn stabs Laertes in MacBeth.

Falcondraco said...EE: Ha ha ha! That would be hilarious - a remake of Macbeth where the black unicorn comes in and stabs Laertes! People would be going "Whaaaaaa???"

stacy said...Falcondraco, I too am interested in your influences. Any fantasy writers you particularly like or that you find inspirational?

Falcondraco said...I love Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, J.K. Rowling, Brian Jacques - all inspirational to me in their own ways.

stacy said...Hmmm. Never heard of Brian Jacques. I'll have to check him out.

Evil Editor said...Evil Jr. had lots of Brian Jacques books. The Redwall Series. I didn't read them, but the cover art indicates the characters might be mice.

stacy said...Well, I'm working on a piece where many of the characters are rats. Would probably be good research reading, anyway.

Sylvia said...I was intrigued the fantasy world you built up and this is probably an obvious question but ... Were you inspired by The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe?

Falcondraco said...Definitely! I loved reading the Chronicles of Narnia. It's funny you should ask this because a friend and I were talking about Fallenwood the other day, and he mentioned that it had similarities to The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe. I tried to write a "FanFic" story based on The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe, though, and it turned out to be really horrible. Has anyone else tried FanFic before? If so, what do you think of it on the whole?

Evil Editor said...Back when we did writing exercises here we did Sherlock Holmes and noir detective and E.A. Poe fanfic. If you can call 300-word pieces fanfic. They turned out great.

stacy said...Ah yes. I remember my noir fanfic protagonist Dirk Beefhead. You're bringing back memories here, Falcondraco. : )

Falcondraco said...Oh, and I read this excellent book called How To Write Science Fiction and Fantasy, by Orson Scott Card. He says that you have to have a "price" for magic, every time it's used. That's why I came up with the idea of the lifelong "Curse" that comes with magic in Fallenwood.

Robin B. said...I never thought about there being a price for the use of magic - a price of some sort, even when not overt. Interesting way to look at it!

Sylvia said...How To Write Science Fiction and Fantasy, by Orson Scott Card That's on my list of must-read books, following a recommendation by a friend. So I take it you recommend it too?

Falcondraco said...I definitely recommend it!

Evil Editor said...I assume you've read Scott Card's most famous book.

Falcondraco said...Unfortunately, How to write Science Fiction and Fantasy is the only book I've read of his.

Evil Editor said...What?! Ender's Game is required reading of everyone in the F & SF field. That's your assignment for this week.

Falcondraco said...Note to Self: Read Ender's Game.

stacy said...I too have not read Ender's Game (yet.) That can be my assignment, too.

Sylvia said...(I liked Ender's Game too)

Robin B. said...I'm interested in the genesis of the plot - was it a combination of doing a lot of reading (I know that feeling well!) in your area of interest, fantasy, plus a daydreaming kind of thing, that became the story?

Falcondraco said...Yeah, I would say it was a combination of reading and daydreaming. I thought up a lot of it when I was working as a cashier, and Fallenwood became my "escape" where I could have fun thinking of plot ideas and working the kinks out and such.

Fairyhedgehog said...I was glad that the Wolf Man was ready to go. One less thing on Ash's conscience.

Evil Editor said...There was a Wolf Man?

stacy said...The Wolf King, I think she meant. I very much liked the idea of the Wolf King. (I love wolves!) Will we be seeing more wolves in the sequel?

Falcondraco said...I'd love to write wolves into the sequel, but not sure how I'd work them in. Hmm...

Evil Editor said...That can be her problem in our world that she has to solve. Wolf infestation of her school.

ColleenB said...Will Graymalkin(sp) remain a cat in the sequel?

Falcondraco said...Right now I'm thinking he will, but it's not set in stone or anything.

Evil Editor said...Make him a werecat.

stacy said...Falcondraco, can you tell us a little about the process you went through to get published?

Falcondraco said...Stacy asks: Falcondraco, can you tell us a little about the process you went through to get published? Sure! Well, I tried a LOT to get published through the conventional means - I made a bunch of these mini books with like three chapters in them, typed up a bunch of query letters, sat down with a huge volume called the Writer's Market, spent a small fortune on stamps and...nothing. I'd never heard of ebooks before, but Decadent Publishing was starting up as an ebook publishing company looking for editors. So I became an editor first, and then decided to submit one of my short stories to them, which they accepted and then later Fallenwood.
I'm not published in print yet, just in e-book format.

stacy said...Falcondraco, I noticed you used a lot of different points of view in this novel. How did you keep track of all the characters? Did you use an outline? Notes? Or did you just sit down and write? (I'm pretty disorganized and tend to just sit down and write, but I'm always curious about the processes of other writers.)

Falcondraco said...I used kind of a rough outline. At first, though, I just sat down and wrote. The first draft was a real mess. Then I took a creative writing class and started getting the story cleaned up and following a progression. So...sorta both methods - no outline at first, and then an outline later on.

Fairyhedgehog said...I was a bit puzzled by Princess Isabella. I think I might have missed the part where her total brainlessness was explained. It seemed so strong as to be magically based.

Falcondraco said...Ooh! That's a good idea! Maybe I could include something like that in the sequel, like Isabelle was just brainwashed or had her mind magically erased or something...

Robin B. said...That's a cool idea about the Princess. I like it!

stacy said...Are there plans to put Fallenwood into print format?

Falcondraco said...I think how it works is that if you sell X number of copies, it ends up going to print. Unfortunately, I don't know what number the X stands for though...

Sylvia said...That's with Decadent Publishing? Are you still an editor there?

Falcondraco said... So far as I know, that's how it works with Decadent. I'm not currently an editor for them since my classes are taking up all of my time. I've figured out that it's nigh-impossible for me to edit and do coursework all at once. My grades tend to suffer if I do that...

Fairyhedgehog said...I liked the Dragon oracle; I have a soft spot for dragons. I felt that maybe I missed some of the significance of dragons in the book.

Falcondraco said...Thanks! I would have liked to do more with the dragons. They'll definitely show up in the sequel though. I do need to do some more world-building where the dragons are concerned though, maybe figure out how many will be in Fallenwood, how rare they are, and such...

Evil Editor said...Speaking of dragons, I was considering shutting down the book chats, but I just started a book called His Majesty's Dragon, which is alternate history in which trained talking dragons act as air support in the Napoleonic wars. I think everyone would like it if you want a September book.

Sylvia said...You mean Temeraire? That was the name of of the book in the UK - funny that they've changed it. Although looking at Amazon.co.uk, I note it says Temeraire (Temeraire 1) [a.k.a. His Majesty's Dragon] which I guess answers that question. Anyway, I've read it and loved it. Will happily re-read for the chat.

Robin B. said...The cover art for your novel is quite good, and I'm wondering how you decided what you wanted?

Falcondraco said...Well, with the ebook publishers, you fill out a form explaining who your main characters are, what the story's about, important symbols and such, and the cover artist creates samples that you can choose from or ask them to alter or whatnot. Like for my short story "The Devil's Bidding", the cover didn't have flames at first, but I really wanted flames, so Dara England was nice enough to add them in for me. She's the one who designed the Fallenwood cover as well. So it was Dara that came up with the overall design for the cover. She's fantastic.

Evil Editor said...I kind of felt Fallenwood was more geared toward middle grade than YA. Based totally on the 4 YA we've read in past book chats (Marbury Lens, Graveyard Book, Twilight, and Hunger Games.

Falcondraco said...Oh, Ok. Good to know. :)

Robin B. said...I think those age range things are a bit nebulous, to be honest, EE, though i see what you mean.

Sylvia said...Hmm, all of the YA books we've read have serious themes about death, including this one. Is that saying something about YA or about us?

Falcondraco said...Oooh! Good question!!!! Personally I'm not sure how to answer that. I've noticed the death theme with a lot of YA novels as well.

Robin B. said...I like the title Fallenwood

Falcondraco said...Thanks, Robin! The title just popped into my head one day and sounded cool. I've noticed that someone already used it for the title of their CD though...lol.

stacy said...Well, people use the same titles all the time. I have a script in the works titled SINEATER, for example, and that's already the name of a fairly famous horror novel.

Evil Editor said...Some titles have been used dozens of times.

stacy said...I thought the jester's curse was pretty interesting.

Evil Editor said...I forgot what his curse was. The trouble with ebooks is that it's harder to flip through and refresh your memory.

stacy said...He can't stop performing until the king tells him to. And Queen Genevieve cruelly keeps the king busy for something like four hours toward the beginning of the novel.

Falcondraco said...The jester's curse was a spoken one - when anyone says "Entertain us," he automatically goes into entertainment mode - playing the lute, doing backflips, etc. uncontrollably until the person says "We are entertained."

Evil Editor said...My minions are constantly telling me to entertain them. And they never say We are entertained.

Evil Editor said...Not you guys, my other minions.

Falcondraco said...So what do you guys think of the magic system in Fallenwood? Is it confusing?

fairyhedgehog said...I thought the magic system was interesting and not quite like any other I'd seen. I wondered what Ash's curse will be when she realises that she can work magic - but that's obviously a question for another day now.

Falcondraco said...And what do you think about the changing point of view in the story? For the sequel, I'm going to try and write it all in Ash's point of view, which I think will make it flow better.

Evil Editor said...If it's all Ash's POV it can be in first person. Which is good if you want to keep putting in lots of her thoughts.

stacy said...In my own works, I tend to stick to no more than three points of view, but that's just me. Stephen King uses something like a half-dozen points of view in The Stand, but he had written a good fifteen novels before then and handled multiple POVs deftly.

Falcondraco said...I noticed that with 'Salem's Lot as well, that Stephen King handles many points of view, a new one with each chapter almost. He does it very well though, and it really paints you a picture of the town and its inhabitants.

stacy said...Yes, Falcondraco! Been years since I've read that one.

Sylvia said...I think I'd find a single point of view easier to follow, to be honest.

stacy said...I think more than one POV is fine. It works well when the author sticks with the main characters, such as the main protagonist and the main antagonist.

Falcondraco said...Thanks Sylvia! Yeah, I was thinking a single point of view might be better. So I'll stick with that for the sequel. Fallenwood was the very first novel I've ever written, so I'm still learning the ropes.

Robin B. said...I think the POV question is answered by saying 'depends'. But I did need to ground myself here and there as I read, so i'd say your idea of sticking to one POV would be good. I'm for first person, if that is a choice?

Evil Editor said...I'm in favor of not keeping our guest any longer. Hopefully this chat was good practice for when you're a famous author and you do a reading followed by a Q & A session with your fans. Thanks for attending, Leslie, and thanks for your contribution to the auction.

Falcondraco said...Thank you very much for hosting the Fallenwood book chat. I hope you've enjoyed the novel, and thank you very much for your comments and questions. :)

Sylvia said...Thank you for coming, Leslie! It's always great to get insight into the mind behind the book!

Dave Fragments said...Sorry I missed the discussion. I read the book and enjoyed it. I wanted to say nice things to the author and missed the chance.

Book Chat 41 Andrew Smith/The Marbury Lens

2011-08-06T10:05:00.000-07:00

Andrew Smith said...Hello.

Evil Editor said...So kind of you to join us. And clever. We seldom criticize a book when the author shows up.

Andrew Smith said...Oh. I'll go away if it makes it more comfortable.

Sylvia said...Don't go! It's much more interesting when the author is here.

Robin B. said...Nothing to criticize, imo. Wonderful read.

Andrew Smith said...Thank you Robin.

Landra said...Concur with Robin. Definitely engrossing.

Anonymous said...I loved the book.

Evil Editor said...There are, of course, a few loose ends. Is a sequel in the works?

Andrew Smith said...There is a sequel, EE. There are always loose ends. I am not allowed to tell about the sequel yet, but should be able to give all details about it in a week or so. It will be out in 2012.

Dave said...I had a question when I started reading this. Did you ever think it was too harsh for teens and too dark a subject -- kidnapping and murder in the first few chapters?

Andrew Smith said...Things like that happen.

Evil Editor said...Never mind kidnapping and murder. Jack getting invited into a three-way by Con and his current babe.

vkw said...I thought the attempted molestation was too dark. But that could be me.

Landra said...I have to say the first few chapters to me were a 16 year-old's nightmare.

Andrew Smith said...I was hoping I would get canned for writing it. Seriously.

Robin B. said...Whoa, Andrew - you HOPED you'd get canned?!

Andrew Smith said...Robin, I was actually hoping that someone would tell me the book was for adults, that it WASN'T YA (a genre category I despise), but my editor and publisher absolutely love the book. Go figure there, too. There was never a hint of a discussion about "toning things down."

Robin B. said...Ahhh - I see, Andrew. YA isn't my thing, either. It's like calling To Kill a Mockingbird a kid's story because the narrator is young. Totally agree on that. And I think that's why well-written YA novels have huge adult audiences - "YA" is a concept, not a reality.

Sylvia said...I think that's wonderful that you weren't asked to tone it down. Sometimes it seems like mainstream publishing is focused too much on keeping books light.

Landra said...I agree. Toning the story down would have ruined it. I like the tone--kidnapping and murder at the beginning is what grabbed me as a reader to keep going. At that point I'm thinking "Could this get any worse." Then came the crotch grabbing idiot on the plane. Eck!

Andrew Smith said...Ha!

Sylvia said...I presumed killing the guy was to show part of the world logic - he still existed in Marbury even though he was gone from the "real" world. The threesome scene had me laughing, actually.

Whirlochre said...Picking up on Dave, you took a very big gamble when you had Jack knock off the evil paedo as it makes your protag a 17 year-old murderer. As things panned out, you could have had Horvath left for dead without diminishing what Jack comes to feel about the whole thing (or, as far as I'm aware, upsetting anything on the plot front). But no — you killed the paedo. I'd love to hear your take on that decision.

Andrew Smith said...It happened to me when I was a kid. But I didn't kill anyone.

Evil Editor said...Or at least you aren't admitting to killing anyone.

Andrew Smith said...I'm pretty sure he's dead now.

Sarah Skilton said...I didn't personally view Jack as a murderer because Horvath's death was an accident. I did have some dread that the police might show up before the end of the book, though.

Robin B. said...I was actually happy to see something spelled-out, dark, from the beginning. It seems to me we coddle too much now.

Matthew MacNish said...Personally I felt it was all the brutal darkness in this story that set it aside (and above) all other YA lit I'd read before it. It was harsh, yes, but honest.

Sylvia said...I really respected the way you dealt with the kidnapping and the helplessness, actually. In such a way that readers could understand how such a thing could happen without blaming the victim for putting himself into the situation.

Robin B. said...Agree with Sylvia - not blaming the victim is a good, good thing. Too much of that happens now. I liked the language - you managed spartan and poetic at the same time.

vkw said...Somehow being invited to a threesome, murder and kidnapping, I could deal with. Torture and the rest, I had a hard time with.

Sarah Skilton said...I loved the book (and even had a dream about Marbury the night after I finished reading. I woke up semi-paralyzed, and then thought, "Awesome.") I've got two questions about Marbury Lens:

1. How important was it for you to set a large portion of the book in England? Was it to give the guys more freedom than they might have had in the U.S.? (to meet girls, have access to alcohol, be able to travel around on their own?)

2. Is everyone's experience of Marbury different? What I mean is, Jack and Conner saw people there that they knew (or could potentially know) in "real" life, but if someone else were to go to Marbury, would they see the same people, or only people in their personal circle?

Andrew Smith said...Sarah,

1. I spent a lot of time in England as a kid. All my books are largely autobiographical.

2. Good question. Marbury is real. Everyone sees the same thing when they're tuned to the same channel.

Dave said...Was this a description of some mental illness on Jack's part? That thought lasted until Conner went to Marbury but it still persists in my mind.

Andrew Smith said...Dave, It's not mental illness. I don't think so, at least.

Whirlochre said...Going to Blackpool is a form of mental illness. Surprised you didn't go for Margate or Brighton.

Andrew Smith said...I like Blackpool. I also like Brighton. Go figure.

vkw said...I could see Marbury being an unconscious fugue-state that Jack was using to deal with his feelings about Connor, kidnapping, attempted rape and the eventual murder. I wasn't disappointed when Marbury was real.

Dave said...These kids, no matter what they say to adults are so isolated and alone. Or at least they feel so isolated and alone. They don't understand that all these things have happened before and they hold them inside and let them stew away.

Whirlochre said...The best part of the book was undoubtedly the relationship between Jack and Conner — had this been in any way iffy, all the stuff about lenses and Marbury would have fallen apart. In terms of how the book developed, I'm assuming this relationship arose from out of the Marbury thing and not the other way round — or did you start out with the two guys and add the funky glasses later?

Andrew Smith said...Whirlochre, originally the story was ONLY going to be about my revisiting this idea of the kidnapping. I started having weird dreams while writing the book -- about Marbury -- and I figured there was something else trying to come out. That's where the glasses came from. As far as Conner goes, yes... he is the key.

Evil Editor said...Is the addictive nature of the glasses a metaphor for something that happened to someone in your life?

Andrew Smith said...A lot of former addicts have contacted me after reading TML. But no... other than Jack's own inability to step away from his own inner haunting, the addiction is merely, purely, internal and psychological.

Sarah Skilton said...For me, the experience of reading the book paralleled the experience of Jack using the lenses. You feel this pull to keep going back, and you feel discombobulated about what's occurred in England during Jack's time in Marbury.

Matthew MacNish said...Well said, Sarah. When I first met Andrew, I told him the book felt just like heroin to me. I simply could not put it down. Now, nearly a year later, I still can't stop thinking about it.

vkw said...I thought the glasses were an excellent description of addiction. Here Jack finally gets the great girlfriend but he's always itching to go back to Marbury and, of course, once the girlfriend realizes how messed up Jack is, all she wants to do is rescue him. Co-dependency at at its best and at its birth.

Andrew Smith said...If I were in Jack's place - and I suppose I am - I would not stop myself from going back, just because of the rush of doing it. That's just how I am.

Landra said...Sarah and Matthew, you're absolutely right. The story grabs you. I like the heroin addict analogy Matthew. For me the best way to describe it is like a wreck on the side of the road. Back in traffic you see the flashing lights, you know it's a mess but you can't stop yourself from slowing down and gawking. Wondering did someone die? Will they die? and all those other inner intrusive thoughts. To the point that you are waiting for the news that night so you can get the story behind it.

Evil Editor said...I have to admit I got tired of the voice in Jack's head saying the same things over and over. I wasn't sure what I was supposed to get from that.

Whirlochre said...Agree with EE — though those italics were a kind of mental distress foil to the reality distress of Marbury, I suppose.

Landra said...Jack's head voice I thought was the dweller or worrying part of him. Know that voice all too well. I felt it was more stress oriented. Jack's entire world is torn up- well, both worlds. The inner voice to me is how he's trying to stay stable. Intrusive thoughts, devils!

Sarah Skilton said...Landra, I agree about the inner voice. It felt realistic to me. Intrusive thoughts go on auto-repeat. That's part of what makes them awful.

Matthew MacNish said...I didn't mind the echoes at all. That kind of thing happens when a person experiences trauma. And I agree with others. None of the fantasy/horror/sci-fi would have mattered if this wasn't ultimately a great story with great characters in a true friendship.

vkw said...I didn't mind the talking voice in Jack's head. Intrusive thoughts are always in our minds and the more stressed someone is the more those thoughts intrude. It's a good measure of anxiety.

Evil Editor said...Agreed, but my intrusive thoughts have more variety. If the voice in my head kept saying Fuck you, EE, I'd have to wear an iPod 24-7.

Andrew Smith said...Maybe I should get an iPod.

Matthew MacNish said...It would be extremely annoying to hear that in real life, but it felt completely authentic to the story, and the stress that would come with it, to me.

Robin B. said...Inner voices are fascinating. I believe none of us are much like our inside voices. We keep it safely tucked away, if we can.

Dave said...It was a ghost. This was a haunting a very stylish and grand haunting but that's what I finally decided Marbury is, a haunting.

Andrew Smith said...Nicely put, Dave.

Sylvia said...I came to the conclusion (maybe rationalising coincidences) that Marbury was very small, hence Jack seeing so many people he recognised in London. I wasn't sure if you had to be (or have been) in London to appear in Marbury though. Now that I think about it, the crazed doctor wouldn't have been in Marbury if that were the case.

Whirlochre said...When I reached Seth's Story (1) I thought 'uh oh, here comes backstory' and it was an interruption to the flow at first. By parts (2) and beyond, I'd settled down to how this was going to work, but I did wonder why you'd chosen to drop in narrative in this way. Seth chatting directly to Jack might have been another option — why didn't you go for that?

Andrew Smith said... I can't explain it. It just happened that way. I don't know why I write the way I do, it just happens.

vkw said...Seth's story is the one I keep thinking about. Some of the Marbury imagery intrudes into my thoughts and dreams, but it was seth's story that I found haunting and beautiful.

Dave said...I did like the links between Jack's birth and Seth's life. That worked out so well.

Andrew Smith said...I wanted to write a book about Seth. People kept telling me not to write historical because nobody will publish it. Eh... so I did it anyway.

Dave said...The last ghost story I read that felt really scary good like this was O'Nan's Night country. As Seth's story unfolded, this was just as thrilling. Seth is a forefather of Jack and I suspect that Griffen and his buddies in Marbury are somehow related (maybe not by blood) to Seth the ghost's family.

Landra said...It seems that writing historical worked out for you Andrew.

Matthew MacNish said...Andrew, if you could also say a bit about the difference between the purple lens and the blue?

Andrew Smith said...You will see what happens with those other lenses. I promise. They are not nice.

Evil Editor said...He's hoping to figure out a cool lens idea in time for book 3.

Whirlochre said...Maybe the other lens is simply to help the partially sighted find the bad lens.

Evil Editor said...One lens allows Jack to see Marbury. The other is those X-Ray specs they sell in the back of comic books.

Matthew MacNish said...Considering the M-theory angle, and the way you described it as cars on a freeway at one point ... are there other worlds besides Marbury and our own? Other cars, so to speak?

Andrew Smith said...Okay, there are other worlds. In fact, every time Jack goes back to Marbury, it's a different Marbury; and when he comes home, it's a different home, too. Things haven't stopped changing for Jack. He just doesn't realize how messed up they're becoming...

vkw said...that's where I was hoping you were going Andrew. The lenses are addictive and it always starts out fascinating, interesting, fun, and adrenaline pumping up until you're sticking a needle in your arm. . .

Dave said...My Niece's boy just turned 16 a couple months ago. I see the same lost thoughts and discoveries of teen angst as I watch him grow up. This is teen angst, teen worry, teen everything is against me and all that hullabaloo that teens have going on that we (adults) forgot and mostly don't think about. Adults are all about certainty. Teens aren't.

Whirlochre said...Given the mixed-upness of the whole Marbury thing, it's good to see Jack equally mixed up about Nickie.

vkw said...There is a fine line between anxiety produced intrusive thoughts and audio hallucinations. this is the stuff that fascinates me. That's why I found this so compelling.

Matthew MacNish said...That's a great point VKW. I wondered whether Jack might be hallucinating until nearly two-thirds of the way in.

Whirlochre said...I'm guessing Disney haven't approached you yet about turning this into a cartoon featuring a giraffe as Jack — but would you like to see it made into a film?

Andrew Smith said...It's been optioned for film. And I did have a meeting at Disney studios. Talk about a trip through Marbury...

Robin B. said...Whirl, this seems like it would be a cool as hell visual novel, aka film, doesn't it?

Whirlochre said...I see a Smith/EE team-up in the offing: The Marbury Pince-nez...

Matthew MacNish said...I'd love to see a graphic novel, too.

Landra said...Disney... hm, I don't think a giraffe named Jack is the way to go. Maybe a mongoose. No really, I think visually this would be a great movie.

vkw said...I would love to see this as a movie. But not a YA movie more like a "the Road" movie.

Whirlochre said...It's certainly got a visual slipstream element teens of all ages would love to combine with popcorn and necking...

Landra said...On board with Matthew on a graphic novel too. I think there is more to offer with a graphic novel probably than film.

Andrew Smith said...There are some very talented Visual Effects artists working on it. I've seen their concept art and it's stunning.

Evil Editor said...Once the movie exists they should make virtual reality glasses you can wear to watch it.

Sarah Skilton said...Ha! That would be terrifying, actually.

Matthew MacNish said... Hollywood would probably ruin this. Independently it might be done well ...

Dave said...I just saw the last Harry Potter movie and it is far and away a different story than the first one. Characters age and grow. Good luck with the movie industry. It's more dreadful than Marbury. It has real zombies with purple spots and flesh eating creatures wandering about.

Whirlochre said...I was itching for something to happen to Spot — but it didn't. Please tell me there was a Spot vs Bug scene flagged down by your agent as "one of Andrew's 'must-be-killed' darlings". Maybe in book 3...

vkw said...whatever you do, Andrew. Save the dog. I always hate it when the dog dies.

Andrew Smith said...The only reason I put the dog in the book was to NOT kill it. People got so mad at me for the psycho who shoots a dog in my second novel.

Matthew MacNish said...And the cat in the first.

Whirlochre said...Ha! Deliberate pooch invincibility. Love it.

Landra said...Are readers happy with this new save the animals approach Andrew?

Evil Editor said...If you want to kill an animal make it a werewolf.

Dave said...Killing children and dogs is an art. If you do it, do it well. Remember Blue-eyed handsome Henry Fonda shoots a kid in ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST and shocked the world.

Landra... hmm... I have four more books coming out between now and 2014, and I'm trying to think about whether there are any animals that get whacked in them...

Robin B. said...Andrew, when you write, does the prose come out close to what we've read, with some smooothing, or is there a longer process?

Dave said...Do you have the "feast or famine" publishing syndrome? Starve, starve, starve and then more than a book a year all at once?

Andrew Smith said...Dave, I write about 3 books per year.

Sarah Skilton said...Three books a year is amazing. I know you're not a fan of the genre term YA but do all of them have teenage protags? Or some older? Do you think you'll put out an "adult" book in the next few years?

Andrew Smith said...I am writing a very adult novel at the moment. It just happens to have 3 teens as the main characters. After that, I am trying to figure out a way to write a Middle Grade that can still allow for an f-bomb or two. And an adult novel (true adult novel) is definitely coming.

Evil Editor said...Have you considered a child's picture book with some graphic (but tasteful) sex?

Andrew Smith said...Graphic and tasteful, like all sex.

Robin B. said...Agree on the tasteful re sex, although our definitions of that word might just vary. The three books per year answers my question, then, about writing process! You're quick - but I assume there was a lot of stewing time before the writing began?

Andrew Smith said...Robin, yes. Lots of stewing. Then when I write I usually finish in under 7 weeks. In regards to an earlier question, what I write is so close to the final product that there are very few changes at all -- more stuff added, certainly, than omitted.

Robin B. said...Interesting about your process, Andrew. Seems to me you've had the smarts not to cut the very things that individualize your writing, which then makes the reading of it a very personal experience for your audience.

Andrew Smith said...Thank you Robin. I've been writing for my entire life. It was a friend (published author) who finally dared me into getting something published. I never honestly wanted to be published, but responded to the dare. Now, it's like Jack and the glasses I suppose. Writing is addictive, harmful to the people who love me, and self-destructive.

Dave said...I just went and looked you up on Amazon. There's a real picture. I hope they put in on the flap of the next book. A rocking horse is kinda blah.

Andrew Smith said...Dave, I have always shunned author photos on my books. I also never wanted any bio on the dust jacket, either. They forced that on me. I only wanted this: Andrew Smith wrote this book.

Landra said...Question: How many wonderful scenes were cut from Book 1? Have you thought about publishing a version of the book with these scenes in it or are they null and void due to the sequel?

Andrew Smith said...No scenes were cut from book 1 at all. Book 2 is very long. It will be interesting to see what happens when we start digging into that monster.

Evil Editor said...Have you been approached about a Marbury theme park?

Andrew Smith said...No, but I have patented human scalp codpieces for kids at Halloween.

Sarah Skilton said...EE, gaining admittance to the Marbury theme park is easy; the hard part is fighting your way out.

Evil Editor said...It would be great. You sit in a comfortable chair, put on Marbury lenses and thru virtual reality you experience Marbury until your head gets cut off and nailed to a wall.

Evil Editor said...Any final questions or comments before we release Andrew from his cage?

Andrew Smith said...Thanks for hosting this, EE. It was terrific. Thanks everyone for stopping by.

Book Chat 40 Meljean Brook/The Iron Duke

2011-07-09T09:25:00.000-07:00

Dave said...I liked he book more as a mystery and an action story.

Evil Editor said...You mean more than as a romance or more than as steampunk? What about the hot sex?

Dave said...I'm not the world's greatest romance fan. It was interesting and attention grabbing sex but not bodice ripping, I gotta go get a kleenex sex. I liked the steampunk aspects. It made the world more interesting than a plain Victorian setting or a modern day setting.

Evil Editor said...Yes the contraptions, etc. made the book. It didn't need the romance, though I'm guessing it would have sold a lot fewer copies in the SF section. I guess steampunk is a subgenre of alternate history. What would the world be like if scientific/mechanical progress had gone in this direction?

Dave said...I think steampunk works because the reading audience like those "play of manners" and the ridged social conventions of the Victorians. The equipment is just fantastical enough to be recognized and easily accessible.

Dave said...There was a lot to Mina's character and makeup that wasn't said and she seemed (the word I'm thinking is constipated) inordinately resistant to having a romance with the Iron Duke. M. Brook doesn't really explain that other than bias against the former oppressors. I felt there was more to that story than this novel let on.

Evil Editor said...She thought that if she were involved with him it could ruin her family.

Dave said...I think that when crafting a story, either the characters themselves must be interesting enough to hold the reader or the setting has to be fascinating enough to involve the reader in its uniqueness. Steampunk fulfills on the second count in a way that future science (let's say like the MATRIX) can't...

Evil Editor said...I did enjoy this a lot more than the other romances we've done. Or the science fiction.

Dave said...It's a nice read. There's enough of a romance to fulfill the romance fans and the steampunk scifi settings are approachable and friendly. It's got enough action to satisfy the "bang, bang, boom, boom" crowd that likes car crashes and explosions. I looked at the cover and it says in a copper colored bubble -- A Novel of the Iron Seas -- I'm guessing that there is another story to fulfill the promise of that Tease...Perhaps it was deliberately not all revealing on the society aspect.

Evil Editor said...It's pretty common for any genre book these days to be a potential series.

Dave said...This is like "What do I like more?" The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen" or "2010" and I think the answer to that is "League" because we can relate to it more and better. When I started reading, I didn't think that I would enjoy the book. By the murder I was happily surprised by it and liked it.

ril said...I feel guilty for not having read it now...

Evil Editor said...Did you buy it and not read it? Or just assume it would stink?

ril said...I didn't buy it. I'm way behind on reading what I've already got, and it's such a premium to get English book here, I'm a bit choosy. I think I need to get a Kindle...

Evil Editor said...Some of the supporting characters were cool in this book. The Blacksmith, Yasmeen, Scarsdale.

Dave said...Did you ever go back into a short story and flesh-out a supporting character and give them a deep, dark past? I have a feeling that M Brook did just that on one of the edits. There is an entire lost love or unrequited love story in the Redheaded Constable Newberry

Evil Editor said...These book chats aren't exactly drawing crowds. But I have to continue through August so the auction winner gets her prize. And one hopes it'll be a bigger crowd than this one.

Book Chat 39 My Mother She Killed Me, My Father He Ate Me

2011-06-04T09:32:00.000-07:00

Evil Editor said...Greetings, lovers of fairy tales.

Dave Fragments said...My Mother She Killed Me, My Father He Ate Me...With that title, I thought it was horror.

Evil Editor said...Instead it turned out to be porn. OK, I'm exaggerating. But these are not your mother's fairy tales.

Mother (Re)produces. said...You haven't met my mother.

Zachary Gole said...Well, that was an... odd assortment...

Mother (Re)produces. said...I thought I'd sit in on this one even though I completely failed to order my copy of the book in time...

Evil Editor said...I recommend ordering the next book as soon as this chat is over.

Dave Fragments said...To be honest EE, I wasn't thrilled with this. First, I didn't know most of the fairy tales and I had to go look them up, second, some of the stories weren't engaging and fairy tales are supposed to be engaging.

Zachary Gole said...I did like some of the stories, but to be honest a lot of them left me cold. There were rather too many that struck me as self-consciously artsy, as going out of their way to avoid the appearance of having a definite point.

Dave Fragments said...Thank you Zachary, I thought that I was the only one reading who missed the point. I did like Joyce Carol Oats' retelling of Bluebeard. I had just heard Bluebeard Castle by Bartok and it resonated nicely.

Zachary Gole said...Also, from the introduction, I'm not entirely clear on what the editor's definition of a fairy tale is, and what she feels the difference is between a fairy tale and fantasy fiction. She says "When asked by some contributors what a fairy tale was, I would answer: You already know." I'm not sure that answer was as useful as she thinks it was.

Evil Editor said...I admit that most of these weren't even what I would have called fairy tales. They're more like literary fiction. I assumed the author asked a bunch of authors to write fairy tales, and that they would submit fairy tales kids would enjoy. These are short stories for adults.

Zachary Gole said...The theme of the anthology did seem fairly loose. There were only a handful that I'd call fairy tales, and some of them didn't even seem to really be based on fairy tales except for a very tenuous connection that the reader might not make at all were it not for the titles and the author's notes.

Mother (Re)produces. said...I have read one of the stories in another anthology and was surprised to see it turn up in a fairy tale anthology. I'm thinking of Neil Gaiman's Orange; that was in YBSF 14. What fairy tale was that based on? I saw someone refer to the Odyssey, and thought, huh?

Zachary Gole said...As for whether Orange really was based on the Odyssey, though... that doesn't seem entirely clear. Gaiman doesn't actually say so, though he does mention the Odyssey in passing. Some authors mention in their notes several different fairy tales from which they took inspiration, and the editor in each case chose one of those tales to categorize the story by. It could be she simply associated Orange with the Odyssey because that's the only fairy tale (well, or somewhat fairy-tale-like story; I wouldn't really call the Odyssey a fairy tale) mentioned by name in the author's notes.

Evil Editor said...Actually, Gaiman opens his essay at the end by quoting someone who said something about the Odyssey. I'm not sure we're meant to think Orange is based on the Odyssey. He calls Orange a mistake story, a magic shop story, ...

Zachary Gole said...Right, that's what I mean; he doesn't say his story is based on the Odyssey, he only mentions it in passing in quoting from another work based on it.

Mother (Re)produces. said...That makes more sense. I was really struggling to see that connection.

Dave Fragments said...I couldn't make sense of the Neil Gaiman story and I love Gaiman as an author. For some reason he was incomprehensible this time...

Mother (Re)produces. said...Gaiman does do a lot of stuff short and long that are very fairy tale like; that's why i couldn't see why they chose this particular story...

Evil Editor said...The Gaiman one was a clever idea. One side of a "conversation," and you have to figure out what the questions are that are being answered.

Mother (Re)produces. said...Yes, I like the story. I just didn't get why it was in this book, but as i said, I haven't read the rest of the book so maybe it's as relevant as some of the other stuff.

Dave Fragments said...And I still couldn't make heads or tails of Gaiman's story. I must have been in a ugly mood that day. I'll have to go back and read it.

Zachary Gole said...Re Gaiman's story: I don't think you're supposed to try to figure out what question led to every single answer. Some of them may be irrelevant. Maybe you were overthinking it?

Dave Fragments said...That's entirely possible. I can be too literal. I know some of my feelings toward these stories were my personal preferences that decided to sprout like weeds in April.

Mother (Re)produces. said...Dave, I had to read it twice. It's just a bit of fun, really...

Evil Editor said...It's supposedly answers to a questionnaire. Theoretically Gaiman had a question in mind for each answer. I found it entertaining to try to figure out what each was, but it's not vital to do so, and in some cases pretty much a wild guess.

Dave Fragments said...When I read the title of the book, I thought "horror" like when I read the title of Poppy Brite's "Are you Loathsome tonight" but it didn't deliver.

Evil Editor said...I liked the seven dwarfs one, and Half of Rumplestilskin. I liked the ones that felt like fairy tales.

Zachary Gole said...Yeah, A Day in the Life of Half of Rumpelstiltskin was one of them I liked. Ardour, the second story, kind of got to me too, particularly after reading the author's notes.

Mother (Re)produces. said...I'm still looking forward to reading it; there are a lot of author's whose work I love on that list, so i would have ordered it anyway. sorry to hear some of it is so disappointing!

Evil Editor said...I'm sure you won't be disappointed if you go into it expecting literary stories rather than fairy tales.

Mother (Re)produces. said...what did you all think of kelly link's story in here? was it up to her usual standard?

Zachary Gole said...I'm not entirely sure I can say I _enjoyed_ Catskin, but I thought it was an interesting read, and I guess I can say I'm glad I read it. Though I can't say whether or not it was up to her usual standard, since I don't know what her usual standard is.

Evil Editor said...Kelly Link's was at least fairy tale-like but I thought it went on too long.

Dave Fragments said...I didn't get to Kelly Link's story. I had a cat attack me this month (I said April was lousy) and I didn't want to read about cats creeping around. Sorry. I'll read it this afternoon as punishment.

Mother (Re)produces. said...What about Aimee Bender?

Zachary Gole said...Ah, I'd forgotten that one. Yes, Aimee Bender's story was definitely one of the better ones, too.

Evil Editor said...I thought Aimee Bender's (The Color Master) was one of the best.

Dave Fragments said...I have notes on The Color Master and it is a good story. I liked it, sort of. It is an odd and very wonderful story in many ways but I don't know how it could be told to a child.

Zachary Gole said...In fact, on second thought, I might rate it above Catskin as the best story that actually felt like a fairy tale. Well... it may have been slightly less "fairy-tale-like" than Catskin (to my subjective eye), but I thought it was a better story.

Mother (Re)produces. said...OK! Well, then I at least have those two to look forward to.

Zachary Gole said...I think I may have been harsher on it in my last comment than I meant to be, though, when I said I wasn't sure I enjoyed it. Actually, of the few stories in the anthology that actually _did_ feel like fairy tales, I think it was the best.

Dave Fragments said...I liked the Teague O'Kane story and I liked the oddness of the Jack in the Beanstalk but not as kids stories as retelling for adults. Which, if that was the stated aim of the book, it succeeded. This was literary retelling of kids tails for adults. The book was successful that way.

Evil Editor said...I thought it got off to a bad start with the Audubon story. It felt like the author had an agenda. I don't recall reading fairy tales with characters who were real people.

Mother (Re)produces. said...What do you mean 'real people,' EE-like human, or like Donald Trump?

Evil Editor said...Like Donald Trump.

Mother (Re)produces. said...Hmmm...Would we know? it's possible that some known royalty was satirized in the early tales and we just don't see it any more. Anyway, I'm looking forward to the book.

Evil Editor said...Satirizing is fine, it's using actual people's names as characters that seemed un-fairytaleish. It happened in another story as well.

Mother (Re)produces. said...Mmmm...I'm really sorry I didn't get the book in time; that's what I get for living over here with all this chocolate.

Dave Fragments said...April was my month against the literary world. For instance, Baba Yaga's hut, the re-interpretation was nice if you knew that Audubon really did kill and mount his specimens. If you didn't know that, then the story was mildly heart-warming (pun intended).

Zachary Gole said...There were way too many that seemed to just follow a formula of "Let's write some present-day slice-of-life story and toss in a vague reference somewhere to a fairy tale", or "Let's write some non-linear patchwork of barely related vignettes associated with a fairy-tale."

Evil Editor said...In fairness, we are probably familiar with the twenty-five or fifty fairy tales that have stood the test of time, while hundreds or thousands of them have vanished. Thus we have very narrow ideas of what a fairy tale is, and can't expect everything in the book to measure up to the best of all time. If the editor has used only the 30 best stories it would have been a better book. By "30 best" I of course mean my 30 favorites. There are few if any here that would appeal to children.

Zachary Gole said...To be fair, I'm not sure how much a lot of genuine fairy tales would appeal to children, in their original forms. Heck, even in Grimms' Fairy Tales, there's a lot of stuff that children could find disturbing, and the Grimms actually did a lot of bowdlerization from their sources.

Mother (Re)produces. said...That's true, Zach, the Grimm's are Grim! and I do have the sanitized version. But these stories are in no way intended for kids, so.....?

Dave Fragments said...In the original German, RotKapchen (Red Riding Hood), the wolf did actually eat several characters.

Mother (Re)produces. said...yes, and the MC in the Robber bridegroom has a severed finger land in her lap.

[Perhaps it's worth inserting that nothing on the cover suggests that the book is not a good choice for children . . . Well, there's the title.--EE]

]Evil Editor said...I loved the writing in The Girl, the Wolf, the Crone. Fairy Tale -like, but clever wording that adults would appreciate. A Kiss to Wake the Sleeper was fairy tale-like. But with sex. I'm used to fairy tales having violence. Not so used to sex and bad language.

Zachary Gole said...As for fairy tales not having sex... that's one of the things the Grimms cut out. The original fairy tales did have sex. You know how the Grimms have Rapunzel remarking how the witch is so much heavier than the prince? That's not how it originally went; the Grimms changed it. How the version went that they originally found was that the witch figured out what was going on when Rapunzel remarked on how her dresses were getting tighter -- the implication being that Rapuy decided that wasn't appropriate for kids, so they changed it. Of course, the prince having his eyes poked out by thorns was perfectly child-friendly, apparently.

Mother (Re)produces. said...originally, the Grimm's tales had a lot of sex too. They were collected (in German) for historical purposes, and when they realized their popularity was with parents reading them to their children, they were edited for the second edition. Yes, Rapunzel was pregnant after that first visit from her prince charming. :)

Mother (Re)produces. said...I think the 'no sexual content' in fairy tales is something we can thank the 19th and 20th century for. The level of sophistication, otoh, that I'm assuming i will find in the book is something that would not be in kid's stories.

Zachary Gole said...But then, maybe the fact that I think it was less fairy-tale-like and the fact that I think it was a better story are related... fairy tales, as I'm used to them, aren't really necessarily good stories. Well, that's not exactly what I mean; they certainly have powerful themes and subjects that have kept them alive in the popular imagination for ages. But compared to modern stories, they're often meandering, somewhat nonsensical, and lacking in character development. (Heck, a lot of fairy tales don't even bother giving their protagonists names.) In that sense, Catskin was definitely fairy-tale-like; it meandered quite a bit, and threw together a lot of interesting things that didn't really follow logically (though it did perhaps have rather more well fleshed out characters than a typical fairy tale). The Color Master (Aimee Bender's story) was more focused and had more of a coherent plot, which I guess may be what made it seem slightly less fairy-tale-like to me. But maybe I'm being a little unjust to fairy tales.

Zachary Gole said...I'm not trying to put down fairy tales, by the way; I do have a strong interest in fairy tales myself -- I own all the Andrew Lang Fairy books and a complete book of Grimm's, and one of the many projects I have on the back burner that I may never get around to finishing is a series of books expanding on well-known fairy tales. Nothing against fairy tales, but there are some differences between fairy tales and modern fiction.

Mother (Re)produces. said...For what it's worth, I'm even keener to read the book now than I was before.

Evil Editor said...I liked the authors' discussions of how they chose to write their stories in most cases. And I'm glad the contents told what each story was based on.

Zachary Gole said...I did enjoy the author's notes, yes (most of them, except in at least one case (My Brother Gary Made A Movie And This Is What Happened) when the author took the author's notes as an excuse for writing more pretentious palaver). Like I said, to me the author's notes on Ardour, in particular, put the story in a new light.

Dave Fragments said...I must admit, after a couple stories I almost didn't read anymore and I was glad I stuck to reading some of the later stories.

Zachary Gole said...You know, I was afraid I wasn't going to have anything to say during this book chat. That... has turned out not to be a problem, apparently.

Book Chat 38 Josh Bazell/Beat the Reaper

2011-04-30T10:34:00.000-07:00

Evil Editor said...Possibly it's just my cynical sense of humor, but I loved this book.

stacy said...I did, too.

fairyhedgehog said...Hi everyone! I found the book a bit gory but I enjoyed quite a lot of it.

Evil Editor said...I don't mind gory when it involves sharks.

stacy said...I didn't even think about that. He managed to get sharks in there. No wonder EE loved this book. : ) There were parts that made me laugh out loud. I don't have the book with me, but one exchange I loved was

"Who whistles?"
"Assholes?"
"Okay. Who else?"

vkw said...Hi Stacy. I loved this book too and I can get pretty cynical sometimes too. However, my favorite people are cynical people. I have friends that could have written this book. Can't wait to send it to one of them. I loved how fast-paced it was.

Sylvia said...I really enjoyed the book too. He was great as a personality. Larger than life but flawed enough that it didn't feel unbelievable.

Evil Editor said...I read it in early April, so I don't recall much in the way of specifics. My one complaint was that it didn't seem reasonable that the guy could drive to Illinois and choose a random motel and still be found almost immediately.

stacy said...I did find it a tad bit unbelievable that the MC and Magdelena (sp?) could spend an entire night in a shark tank without getting eaten. I know her brother was, but it seems to me those sharks would get hungry after an hour or two.

Evil Editor said...The sharks are probably well-fed to begin with. They toss in a cow every day or two.

Sylvia said...The hospital scenes were very scary. I agree the shark tank scene was a bit much - but by then I was so into the book, I didn't care.

fairyhedgehog said...I didn't think the shark tank was much more unrealistic than the whole mafia background, and than someone who'd killed people being on the witness relocation scheme and managing to train as a doctor. Maybe it could all happen but it seemed fairly unlikely to me.

vkw said...I didn't have problems with the sharks. They probably are well fed, but then I don't know. I always thought someone could walk through a lion's exhibit at the zoo without being attacked - as long as they didn't deliberately aggravate the lion. I'm not sure that is true anymore.

Dave Fragments said...I'm here and I like the book but I'll be about ten minutes of half changing an electric socket

Evil Editor said...How do you half change an electric socket?

vkw said...I thought the author was a genius. I have decided never to be hospitalized.

stacy said...I did love the cynicism, though it did make me glad I haven't been admitted to a hospital in a long time.

Evil Editor said...I don't doubt that everything that goes on in this hospital has gone on in some hospital, but to have it all going on in one hospital was hilarious. And scary, if the author convinced you it's commonplace.

vkw said...Remember the part with the girl with the brain infection from the tongue piercing? this was one of the many moments in the book where I went, "where does the author come up with this stuff?"

Dave Fragments said...I've seen some wild things in hospitals but this is beyond reality. It was lots of fun to read about that messed up a place.

Evil Editor said...Also funny are the game on the author's website, and the three trailers for the book.

Sylvia said...I will look at the author's website this afternoon, I hadn't thought to look it up.

fairyhedgehog said...I was mostly enjoying the book but I was left a bit flat by the ending. I think I must be missing something there.

stacy said...I felt the same way, Fairy. But ultimately I didn't care. The writing was too good. The tongue-piercing thing made me wonder if that's actually happened. Just one of those things the tongue-piercing parlors don't want you to know about . . .

vkw said...To Stacy - I am not sure about tongue piercing but I know tooth infections can lead to brain infections. Some historians have theorized that humans used to die a lot from tooth infections. I have seen tooth infections gone really, really bad - all the way up the sinus cavities. (worked with homeless population once)

stacy said...Yike, vkw. I'm making a dentist appointment straight away. !!! I hope my dentist won't be as cynical as the doc in the book.

Sylvia said...I just liked the narrator and how much I was cheering for someone that was clearly the villain in someone else's novel. Although also, I was well impressed with the way he used tenses. So I was on the author's side.

vkw said...The hospital stuff was amazing. Nice contrast to ER. I hope a movie is made of this book. I don't like "slap" (like hangover) comedies or "romantic" comedies but smart, cynical comedies I love.

Evil Editor said...Great footnotes, too.

Sylvia said...The footnotes were actually interesting - I didn't spot them at first. A clear downside of reading on the Kindle. Once I did, I had to backtrack through the first quarter of the book to find them all.

Dave Fragments said...I did like the footnotes in that they added a level of sarcasm to the already funny situations.

vkw said...Loved the footnotes

stacy said...The backstory about the grandparents turned out to be a little chilling.

vkw said...Is the stuff about auswithch true? Does anyone know? And I felt creepy reading that part.

Dave Fragments said...I worked out the Grandparents the instant the old polish woman said that two teenagers killed her brother so many years before. Immediately I thought collaborators.

stacy said...I knew it was the grandparents, too, but for some reason I thought they killed him for revenge. Which doesn't make sense, really. if they were Jews and escaped they would have just run for it.

vkw said...Also, I am sure Dave is going to jump on me for my naivete, but is there really this much open Jewish prejudice in Europe, Poland? To the point the MC saw it and heard it everywhere?

Sylvia said...I didn't see the grandparents backstory coming at all, to be honest. I was less than crazy with the whole "you have to kill someone to get in and old people are easy" logic, though.

Evil Editor said...I'd have been perfectly happy without the Nazis and the sharks and Illinois, just set the whole thing in the hospital. But none of that bothered me. It felt like I was getting the inside story. Like the guy was telling WikiLeaks what goes on in medicine.

stacy said...I did too, EE. Although I see it with how my mom is treated whenever she's in the hospital.

Evil Editor said...The fact that your mom's gone into the hospital more than once and is still alive means it's not as bad as the author would have us believe.

Dave Fragments said...I was in rehab for nearly 5 months many years and then 6 weeks a few years later. Hospitals are crazy but never that bad.

Evil Editor said...They do try to keep you as comfortable as possible until they kill you.

vkw said...One problem I had was why a famous doctor would operate in a charity hospital. 'cause I would think if you could get a doctor like that, you could also arrange for a better hospital. I was going to go back to see if the author explained that but didn't have a chance.

Evil Editor said...Maybe this IS one of the better hospitals. Ever think of that?

Dave Fragments said...Famous doctors really are head cases like that. huge walking egos that want to be worshiped by all involved. I've met and insulted a few in my life. There are cases of skewered spleens that never end in malpractice suits. Major surgery like that is hard to prove malpractice. But I've known colonostomies that ended in really ugly deaths.

stacy said...I'm not saying they're bad; I'm saying they're bad because they're so cynical. You know that egotistical doctor who screwed up the surgery in the book? That basically happened to my mom. She had knee surgery, which actually went fine, but the doctor who performed the surgery refused to contact my mom's cardiologist to find out what pain meds my mom could actually take. Then she overprescribed a pain med, causing internal bleeding. My mom went to the ER, telling everyone the pain was in her groin (where it turned out she was bleeding internally), not her knee, but no one would listen—including the doc who performed the surgery. So she was sent home to bleed internally some more, until she finally went into renal kidney failure. Only then was she admitted to the hospital. Then she contracted a staph infection that had to be stopped before it spread to her heart. I think that's why I liked the hospital parts of this book so much. It hit exactly the tone I've dealt with in hospitals, and how egotism and cynicism can be what screws up the patient. I think most in the health profession are compassionate. But it only takes one.

vkw said...Stacy - I am sorry that happened to your mother.

fairyhedgehog said...I think I'd prefer to believe that hospitals aren't really that bad but stacy's experience kind of goes against that! I'm sorry your mother had such a wretched time, stacy. I must admit my own experience is of some pretty dodgy doctors and they don't all seem to mind if they hurt you. I'm not sure what some of them think anaesthetics are for.

Dave Fragments said...I have a few stories like that but most of the time, doctors and nurses aren't this egotistically cavalier and things go well. This was exceptional and I think it was done for the book. If you read the notes, he wrote this in the down times while finishing med school and doing an internship. So he's writing the commentary to skewer the stupidity that we all know is internship. Doctors are real stupid about pain. I scream at doctors first when I know they are going to hurt me.

Evil Editor said...Yikes, Stacy. Any opinions I get from doctors in a hospital, I'm getting a second opinion from House. Of course the trouble with House is that he never gets it right on the first try. Plus you always end up spewing blood out of at least one orifice before he figures out what's wrong with you. And you have to count on the right thing happening in his personal life to bring out the truth about your case. Like, his guitar breaks a string and he has an epiphany: My patient must have Lupus!

stacy said...LOL, EE! That's true of real-life docs, too, I think. I haven't seen much of House, but doesn't he always get the rare, hard-to-figure-out cases? Like an unproven disease that was documented once in an obscure medical journal in 1969?

Evil Editor said...House is in the Diagnostics dept. He gets the cases the other doctors can't figure out, theoretically. Mostly he takes the cases that interest him. It's a funny show. House is almost as cynical as this guy.

stacy said...I'll have to check it out, EE. I've heard nothing but good things about it.

Dave Fragments said...House is unreal. He's so screwed up personally.

Sylvia said...My favorite review: "Beat The Reaper" by Josh Bazel is what I imagine you'd get if Quentin Tarantino had written House M.D.

vkw said...Sylvia - brilliant. Maybe we need a "Beat the Reaper" television show

Dave Fragments said...Years ago, the FIRESIGN THEATER (a radio comedy group) did a fake gaem show called Beat The Reaper -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3zZ_ih0Jpc

Dave Fragments said...I must admit the sheer outrageousness of the story drew me far enough into it so that I wanted to read the ending.

vkw said...the outrageousness of the book is what may it readable/enjoyable to me. It was kind of a guilty pleasure to chuckle and enjoy images that normally would make me cringe - and ultimately stop reading a book. I am not into gore or presenting crimes as anything but criminal - even with rationalization.

fairyhedgehog said...Maybe that's what made mafia-hitman turned doctor believable: they both believe they have rights of life or death over people.

Evil Editor said...Apparently if your voice is captivating enough, it doesn't matter how outlandish your story is. Readers will go along for the ride.

Sylvia said...I think that is true. This author is excellent and the book was not dashed off. I found myself going backwards a few times thinking "how did he pull that off"

Dave Fragments said...I enjoyed reading this only took three days in between all the other stuff I had to do. It's a fast read.

vkw said...it was a fast read since it took me so long to decide to read it to join this chat. My problem is I have so many books on my shelf to read, it's hard for me to rationalize getting another book. But EE's recommendation made it worth it - I didn't he would lead me wrong on purpose.

Evil Editor said...Sorry, I was off at the Firesign Theater link. Pretty funny, especially as most Firesign Theater stuff is funny only when you're on drugs . . . I've heard.

Dave Fragments said...I remember the comedy routine of Beat the Reaper from the first time i heard in on the radio. This book is written in that same kinda drugged out and spacy realm of anything can happen. The only thing that nagged me was how fast he seemed to go from ignorant goomba and paid killer to medical person capable of surgery. That's a lot of real genius-y type brainpower waste.

vkw said...so what is the take away from this? outrageous stories with good voices work?

Evil Editor said...Most stories are outrageous in one way or another. Good writing works, and voice is an important part of it.

Sylvia said...The writing was superb, I don't think he could have sold us on the character if the story telling ability hadn't been so good.

Evil Editor said...I read a customer review on Amazon that called it the funniest crime fiction debut since Robert Crais's first book. This makes me want to read Robert Crais's books. Has anyone read him? He seems to win a lot of awards.

Dave Fragments said...Good book to discuss. Nice read. What's next?

Evil Editor said...Next is an anthology of new fairy tales, based on old fairy tales. It's over 500 pages, so don't wait till the last minute. My Mother She Killed Me, My Father He Ate Me is the title. I emailed the editor today, maybe she'll join us. She's an authority on fairy tales.

stacy said...Ooooh, fairy tales. Love those. I'll have to go ahead and order now, then.

Book Chat 37 Michelle Huneven/Blame

2011-04-09T10:30:00.000-07:00

Blogger Evil Editor said...I gave ample reminders. If no one remembers to show up, I'm not to blame. Get it? Blame?

Sylvia said...Hello! and that wasn't funny. (ok, maybe a little bit) This is going to sound really snobby but: I hated the dialogue without quotations. I wouldn't have finished it if it wasn't a book chat, based on style alone.

Evil Editor said...I wouldn't call it snobbish to be annoyed by it. Some would call it snobbish not to use them. As it happens, one of my favorite book chat books, Man in the Dark, by Paul Auster, didn't have quotation marks. I've since bought a few of his other books and some of them don't have them either. Maybe no quotes is the new black in litfic.

Sylvia said...I would have gobbled this up in no time if I didn't have to backtrack to reparse sentences when I got to the end. It meant there was this little snide voice in the back of my head going, Think you're too good for punctuation or what?

Evil Editor said...There were a few places where the lack of quotation marks annoyed me because it wasn't clear who was speaking. But for the most part I got used to it.

Sylvia said...I just couldn't see any benefit to it. Even now, I feel like this could have been a runaway best seller, if you didn't scare people off with what appears at a glance to be a dialogue-free novel marked as "lit fic". And despite that, I liked the story. I loved Patsy. I loved all the characters, actually. Once I got a quarter of the way through, the story started pulling me in and I read it very quickly from there.

Zachary Gole said...I admit, the dialogue without quotation marks bothered me a little too. Not enough to prevent me from enjoying the book, but it was a bit of an annoyance, albeit a very minor one. Maybe there was a reason for it that I didn't get, but it just came across to me as an affectation. Still, like I said, I enjoyed the book; the lack of quotation marks wasn't a big deal for me.

Evil Editor said...It would be interesting to know if Huneven's other two novels have quotation marks. If they do, then she made a conscious choice to leave them out here, and we could ask her why. If she were here. Maybe in her other books she doesn't use periods, either.

Robin B. said...The lack of quotation marks doesn't really bother me - one of my favorite authors, Cormac McCarthy, doesn't use them. But I think it takes a truly special skill to pull it off.

Zachary Gole said...This is the second book I recall reading recently without quotation marks, actually. The first was The Road by Cormac McCarthy. The lack of quotation marks bothered me there, too. In fact, I think it bothered me more there, though I'm not sure why; maybe just because it was new to me and having already read that book I was a little more used to them by the time I got to Blame.

Sylvia said...Heh, that's a fair point. It pissed me off when Cormac McCarthy did it too, actually. I really wanted to get past it. I did get past it in both books. And The Road was just plain brilliant, so I didn't feel that same itch of "this could have been better if you hadn't tried to be different" Which is probably a silly sentiment in itself. I don't know, maybe it's a German thing. We haf qvotes for a purpose!

Zachary Gole said...Anyway, on a matter not quotation-mark-related, I kind of wish I hadn't read the dust jacket copy before reading the book, since it gave away a major plot point that comes up near the end of the novel, but oh well... But that's not the author's fault, of course.

Sylvia said...Oh no! I read it on the Kindle so I didn't know anything at all about it going in. I wouldn't have liked to have expectations, I don't think.

Zachary Gole said...(Er... my last comment referred to my previous comment, not Sylvia's; should have just combined those into one comment... sorry...)

Sylvia said...LOL Zachary, it applies perfectly to both.

Zachary Gole said...The dust jacket didn't explicitly give away the plot point in question, technically. But when right after referring to the two Jehovah's witnesses run over in her driveway, it says "Then, decades later, another unimaginable piece of information turns up"—combined with the fact that Patsy didn't remember the accident—it wasn't hard to guess what that "unimaginable piece of information" would be.

Sylvia said...That's awful. Yes, I read the book quite convinced that everything was correct and true. I knew she didn't remember it but that seemed par for the course and I never pondered that. Your dust jacket meant you were waiting for a revelation, whereas I was drifting comfortably.

Evil Editor said...I read the back cover, but by the time I was into the book I'd forgotten all about it. Usually what's on the back cover is lies anyway.

Zachary Gole said...Sylvia -- not only was I waiting for a revelation, but, like I said, the way the dust jacket phrased it, I'd already pretty much guessed what that revelation was going to be. And no, if it weren't for the dust jacket, I doubt I would have guessed that she wasn't really driving at the time of the accident. Regarding the back cover being lies, though, reminds me of a copy I read years ago of The Mote in God's Eye by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle. The plot as described on the back cover bore so little resemblance to the actual story that I couldn't help but wonder whether whoever wrote the back cover had even read the book...

Sylvia said...I had the opposite experience with Dust which I also read on the Kindle. The cover and blurb made it clear that the futuristic sci-fi story takes place on a generation ship. I had no idea and thought it was a particularly bizarre outdoor world until almost halfway through. It all made a lot more sense once I grasped that it was a huge space ship.

Evil Editor said...Here's a little secret of the pub industry. There are only six back-cover plot synopses. All back covers use one of them, changing only the names and places....

Zachary Gole said...While remembering the bit about the "unimaginable piece of information" when I started reading the book, I'd actually forgotten the protagonist's name from the dust jacket copy, so when I got past the prologue I was a little surprised to find that Patsy was the main character, seeing that in the prologue she seemed like a peripheral character, and came across (to me) as rather unlikeable, to boot. Not that that was a bad thing; again, it was interesting to get to see the main character briefly from a different viewpoint before spending the rest of the story behind her eyes.

Evil Editor said...So, when she finds out that crucial bit of information, should she be relieved, or is Cal right that it makes no difference?

Sylvia said...Really, it makes no difference but of course it changes everything. I thought that was awesome.

Zachary Gole said...EE - I think that's intentionally left as an open question. Both sides make some valid points. Maybe it shouldn't let her off the hook entirely, but it does mean she's not as culpable as she thought she was. Cal definitely overstates his case, but it's still true that she did some things she shouldn't have that contributed to the accident.

Evil Editor said...And that it was only a matter of time before some similar disaster befell her the way she was going.

Sylvia said...To be honest, that's how I felt. Not in a "you deserved it" way but the way her life and black-outs were set up, she wasn't portrayed as "just a fun drunk" and clearly she was going to kill herself or someone else before much longer.

Zachary Gole said...Anyway, to say something about the actual text of the book, rather than its dust jacket or punctuation, I thought it was an interesting choice to begin the book from the viewpoint of Joey, who was a relatively minor character thereafter (until the significant role she played near the end). This allowed the author to hint at Cal's infidelity to his wife early on, which she wouldn't have been able to do from Patsy's viewpoint, but I wonder what other reasons she might have had for it. It did also allow her to introduce Patsy and some other major characters as seen from a point of view different from Patsy's, of course.

Sylvia said...I noticed that because it was an odd sort of prologue. I had no idea what was coming so I actually thought that it was all going to be in the girl's words. So from that angle, I was predisposed to like Patsy from the start, because it meant the story had an adult voice.

Evil Editor said...Books that are low on plot and big on character can be boring, but I found this one riveting for some reason.

Sylvia said...I am absolutely in awe of how she took a drunk-driving-killer who got off lightly due to a technicality and had that character hold my full sympathy.

Evil Editor said...I'm in awe of how AA was a major part of the book but it didn't come across as preachy.

Robin B. said...I wasn't nuts about this book. Too special, if you know what I mean - which is the antithesis of the truly literary novel.

Sylvia said...Robin: oh good, because it's annoying when everyone likes it. The chats are much more dull. :)

Evil Editor said...Didn't like it? This was YOUR kind of book.

Robin B. said...EE, the last lit fic selection we've discussed that I truly loved was Enchantress of Florence. I like Auster's book, and did find myself thinking back on it. I think lit fic has changed - has gotten too university-professor-ized for my taste. I do like the concept of the novel - didn't mean I totally disliked the book - the way it was set up, for instance, as you mentioned, Zachary. Sylvia, it's a hoot that you love this and I don't! We agree most of the time, I'd say, don't we?

Evil Editor said...It reminded you too much of your own life; that's why you hate it so intensely.

Robin B. said...EE, you're a stinker. Don't ever change.

Sylvia said...Robin: I'm thinking through the books and I can't think of another one that we disagreed on. Although I read all the Twilight books and you threw it against the wall after a few pages. But to be honest, that was a train wreck that I couldn't look away from, by the end.

Zachary Gole said...One question I'd have loved to ask the author if she was here was what she did for research for the book. How much, and how, did she research prison life before writing? What about AA? And so forth...

Editor said...Maybe she's been in prison and is a recovering alcoholic.

Sylvia said...Her description of AA is spot on from my experience through other people. Actually, I was thinking "has AA really not changed in 20 years?" but then the Gilles plotline made it clear that it all took place about 20 years ago. ("The flu that only queers get" type things)

Zachary Gole said...Sylvia, the copy I read explicitly stated the month and year at the beginning of each part; was that not in the Kindle edition?

Sylvia said...Wow. Yes. I'm stupid.

Evil Editor said...I liked the other men in her life more than I liked Cal. But I guess he was what she needed to get her life straightened out.

Zachary Gole said...EE - I don't know that she did need Cal to get her life straightened out. The impression I got from the book was that marrying Cal was a mistake; that he wasn't really good for her. (And I thought it was implied at the end that she probably was going to end up leaving him for Lewis.)

Blogger Evil Editor said...I didn't get the impression she and Lewis would end up together at the end. I must have missed that implication.

Zachary Gole said...Well, she'd already effectively separated from Cal -- they were living in different houses -- and in the epilogue she gets the letter from Lewis (who's taking a job at the college she works at) saying that "the old agreement still holds" -- i.e., he's still interested in her if she'll leave Cal -- and her reaction to the letter implied to me that she was considering it. It wasn't presented as a sure thing, but I thought it was implied as at least a strong possibility. Again, though, that was just my impression.

Evil Editor said...I guess I read their "old agreement still holds" to mean no contact, but I failed to take into account the "unless." I'm sure they'll be happy together. Unless Bob the Boarder moves in too.

Sylvia said...Cal wasn't all that likeable, I agree. But he was a helluva lot better than Ian!

Zachary Gole said...Heh. Yeah, Cal was still probably better for her than Ian, though.

Evil Editor said...I forgot about Ian. He was the Asian guy, right? But Brice was cool, and she gave some consideration to leaving Cal for Lewis, as I recall. (Been over a month since I read it.)

Sylvia said...I loved Brice. He was such an awesome friend. Although that was clear from the start when he picked up Joey from school. He was my favourite character, I think. Followed by Patsy. And I've just realised: Patsy was one. A patsy, I mean.

Zachary Gole said...I thought the author did a very good job of creating complex characters. All the major characters in the book had several sides to their personality and had more different shades than appeared at first glance, from Gilles' deathbed misanthropy to the desire for recognition and the profligate spending that's ultimately revealed to underlie Cal's apparent benevolence. It seemed to me that Cal had wanted to marry her less out of real love than because of the self-satisfaction he gets from thinking he's turning her life around and being a force for change in the "lost". Not that that was necessarily a conscious motive, and he may have convinced himself he was in love, but that's the impression I got, anyway. Which is part of why Cal was so set on arguing that the fact she wasn't driving didn't make a difference -- he needed her to have been a broken wreck when he took her in. If she hadn't been a completely hopeless drunk who had killed two people, then his taking her under his care would have been less meaningful to him.

Sylvia said...Cal wanted to save her. If she hadn't needed saving, he wouldn't have been interested in her. If she wasn't frightened of herself and what she was capable of, she wouldn't have been interested in him. The entire relationship was based around her desperate need to stay sober. If her sobriety had come about a less dramatic way, it would not have led to their relationship.

Zachary Gole said...Sylvia - exactly. That's the impression I got about Cal and Patsy's relationship, too, but you said it more clearly than I did. As for Brice, he may have been "cool", but, heh, there was at least one likely insurmountable obstacle in the way of the two of them ever getting together again romantically. Though I thought the implication at the end that they would always remain close friends was surprisingly touching. "Twenty-one years ago she'd been sure she couldn't live without him. Fortunately, she hadn't had to." Maybe this sounds silly, but I actually cried a little when I read that.

Sylvia said...I think the lack of passion in their marriage was clearly sketched out from the start. She walks home with Ian from the movies and is filled with desire when he just brushes against her. Then they have sex and she's embarrassed at the strength of her response. She is comfortable and flattered by Cal but never talks about that burning desire. And when they do have sex, she is pleased to find out that he's competent. I thought that was pretty blatant.

Robin B. said...Having been married more than once, I can attest that there are times in life where one says - oh, what the hell - competent will have to do. Depends on where and who you 'are' at particular moments in your life.

Robin B. said...I just went over to Amazon and looked at the reviews to see if I was totally off the mark in my feelings that the book, with its subject matter, could've been great, but fell somehow short. Looks like there's a bit of a split on the reviews there as well, so I suppose it's just a matter of taste. I keep thinking about John Updike - I loved Rabbit, Run - but thought Couples was silly and trite, even though I wasn't supposed to think that.

Evil Editor said...Most books fall short of the greatness they could have attained if the authors had thought to first submit them to Evil Editor.

Sylvia said...Robin: I know I would not have read past the prologue if it wasn't for the book chat. I'm not surprised that views are split. Did anyone complain about the lack of quotes? ;)

Evil Editor said...The Amazon page has a blurb that says: The only debate arose from her unconventional dialogue. The Kansas City Star thought the lack of quotation marks and attributions gave her prose a "dreamlike, luminous depth," while other critics found it confusing.

Sylvia said...dreamlike, luminous depth well I guess that sounds pretty is that true for all punctuation or is it a special case for quotation marks

Evil Editor said...Quotation marks are special, they have curlyness, and they come in sets.

Book Chat 36 Kate Summerscale/The Suspicions of Mister Whicher

2011-03-06T06:07:00.001-08:00

Interview with the author:

Evil Editor said...So, supposedly this is nonfiction written in the format of a fictional murder mystery. To me it seemed like just nonfiction.

vkw said...I thought it was read like a dissertation about the origins of a detective novel, origins of detectives and a horrible murder that happened in Victorian England. And, because it was not focused on a single topic it was a tedious read at times.

Sylvia said...Yeah, I was thrown by the whole "mystery thriller" aspect. The story of the murder was fascinating and the view into Victorian lifestyle was intriguing. But I didn't really think it was a thriller. I think I'd have loved the book if it was half the length. But there were a lot of tangents and I felt like I was being kept away from the core story.

Robin B. said...Agree - the core story was fascinating enough - didn't need the on-and-on 'facts'.

Evil Editor said...The fact that I knew nothing about this murder case kept it interesting, but I could have done with less detail.

Robin B. said...No, I don't think of it as a thriller, either, and to be honest, I think if it had been written differently, it could've been much better. I read background on this - and on the Dickens interest, and I kept imagining if she'd gone wholly novel about it, how good it could have been.

Evil Editor said...Apparently there were dozens of newspapers back then, and the author was able to get copies of them, but I thought she provided too many quotes from them, especially when they frequently said the same things.

Sylvia said...I think as a book about Victorian life, it was very interesting and so people who are looking for that type of book without it being too dry would love this.

Dave Fragments said...I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thought it was too detailed and too long.

Evil Editor said...We didn't really need to know so much about William in Australia. Perhaps she wanted to show that if not for Constance's confession, clearing William of suspicion, the world would never have had the Great Barrier Reef knowledge he provided in his book. The least he could have done was confess in his old age that he was in on it.

Dave Fragments said...Spoken like a dreamer and a romantic. The dread family secret goes to the grave unspoken, don't you know -- unless it can be used to inflict guilt on the children and make them ashamed of themselves. That's the typical dysfunctional family - a hidden, unrevealed "sin" of something that only has import by the fact that it is hidden. That doesn't justify murder but we all aren't Lord MArchmain with a death bed conversion and confession.

Sylvia said...Confession: yes, but it would have made for a much better story! Yeah, the William information at the end was I guess meant to wrap things up - but it felt like another long digression to me. But it was a fascinating case and the book was interesting, just ultimately too detailed and not as strong as it could be. But I'm still glad I read it. I think the expectation was just set wrong - so I was trying to focus on the murder. Other similar books, I've been very accepting of diversions and background information (The Ghost Map comes to mind) but I didn't go into those expecting a thriller.

Robin B. said...I do like to think of the origins of, as the author put it, the first English language detective, but I wish she'd written an article about this part- the background, etc - and simply told a good story in her book.

Evil Editor said...Some of the longer notes in the back were more interesting than the info in the book.

Dave Fragments said...I think that I would have put all of the detail into an more appendixes.

vkw said...I will add this. In the beginning, I was shocked by how similar the murder investigation was to Jonbenet Ramsey murder (child murder in Denver about a decade ago.)
At first the police thought it was break-in, then the father was blamed and then the brother was accused. The police botched it from the very beginning. the press wouldn't let it go. It was so similar to the Whicher case that it was hard to believe the murders took place centuries apart

Sylvia said...vkw: That's a really good point - I remember being horrified reading about the JonBenét case and how it was handled. There's some real similarities.

Evil Editor said...Yes it was definitely eye-opening to find that the press was as sensationalistic a century and a half ago as they are today.

Robin B. said...True about the press. Sensationalism is as old as people's seemy interests, I guess! If it sells more papers, they write it. I always thought of this as a newer phenomenon as well.

vkw said...I guess I always saw the press as noble, (for lack of a better word) until they becamse the sharks they are now. (circling around blood in feeding frenzy) I was shocked at their behavior in this case. It was an eye opener. I feel niave, even misled.

Dave Fragments said...The press as noble -- what a thought. When I was a teen, my Aunt lived and worked in New York City and the NEW YORK POST used to print the bloodiest and nastiest photos on the back page of its daily yellowness to attract sales. Guess what, it worked. It still true with the NY POST that it has sensationalistic stories on the back page and its motto is "if it bleeds, it leads" Should I invoke Charlie Sheen? The rabid and sensational press today is a mere child compared to the early press of this time period.

vkw said...I once saw journalism as a noble profession. I think its okay to be naive sometimes. Let's don't invoke Charlie, it's like paying money to see someone kill himself. I know the author wanted to emphasize Whicher as the detective but to me he wasn't a sympathetic character and I thought he was boring. I didn't find him competent or even interesting. The family was more interesting. They were fascinating.

Sylvia said...The dynamics of the family were very interesting to me too - which is I guess part of what made the press latch onto the story like that. I also did sort of expect Whicher to solve it all and was a bit disappointed even though I know true stories don't work that way

Evil Editor said...Note # 299 (the 2nd 299) in the back lists several books and films that are fictionalized versions of this story. I wonder if, in those versions, there's a solution to the murder? I wonder if they're still in print/video.

Dave Fragments said...In certain times, Police were very closed about their procedures. Many departments still are. They have the experience and no one can improve them. Yet, you see complete failures like this case and JBR case and wonder.

Robin B. said...Too bad it ruined the detective - being right. I wonder if that also would be the case today, if the wrong family was crossed?

vkw said...I wanted to comment on the brother. The author implicated him as a suspect. However, the only evidence I saw against him was that his sister couldn’t do it alone. However, one of the reasons she was disregarded early was the belief a 15 year-old couldn’t do the murder at all. So maybe he didn't confess because he didn't do it. Constance was a fascinating person. To commit a murder like this and then go on to leave the life she led . . .most of the time people do not have the capacity to change like this.

Evil Editor said...Maybe she didn't do it either. There was definitely something suspicious about Constance's confession stressing that she did it with no help. She seemed to protest too much. She could easily be totally innocent.

Robin B. said...And her brother went on to do 'great things' and also ended up in Australia areas. I don't know - it just seems, if you pardon the pun - a little fishy.

vkw said...To Robin: They both went on to do great things. It really is quite odd to see people change this way. I am not naive enough to believe that murderers become saints. That is evidence that the misery in that household was extreme. Also, anyone think that the syphilis connection was a huge leap by the author? Because I did.

Robin B. said...It surprises me that so many people admired this book. I checked it on Amazon before I ordered it. Then I went back when I was maybe halfway through, because I kept thinking "why am I not impressed?" and there were some reviews that said things like 'this would've been better if it hadn't tried to be four books in one' - that kind of thing.

vkw said...To Robin: I agree the book felt like it tried to review several different topics making it tedious and cumbersome. I think the author should have made three books. I think it was a history book as well and not a novel

Robin B. said...Absolutely! It's a fascinating topic. And I'm still not sure the daughter did it. That in itself could make a good story.

Sylvia said...Well, that's an interesting question. Could you write the "story" as a very focused thriller and release a second book with all the detail and background as a tie-in. I guess you'd have to sell the first one and watch it do well, first.

Evil Editor said...Perhaps the reason I found our first nonfiction book, The Devil in the White City, more interesting: it had more blood and death and horrors. The press knows what we want.

Sylvia said...The Devil in the White City: that's an interesting comparison. It was riveting although it held less conversation / recreated scenes.

Sylvia said...To an extent, of course, the author suffers for bad marketing that might not have been anything to do with her. The expectations set by mystery thriller also came up in the video interview that EE posted - you can see the author quite surprised at the implication that anything in the story might be fiction. Clearly, her view of the book was not to pitch it as a novel.

Evil Editor said...The woman doing the interview called it a novel at the beginning of the interview. However, most of the quotes from reviews on the back and inside the front page call it nonfiction. My understanding was that it was supposedly presented in the same manner as murder mysteries are now. Anyone read The Moonstone?

vkw said...Good point Sylvia. I was going to ask EE this. How does a book like this get marketed as a novel? Isn't there rules on this - like - if it not fiction then you can't market it as fiction? Maybe it wasn't marketed as fiction and I was just making an assumption. . . .

Dave Fragments said...one of the problems I see with many investigations (be they police or scientific) is that people search for specific facts that support their theory to the neglect of everything else. It's like a tunnel vision. But beyond that, the result is that the investigation produces only evidence that its theory is right and excludes all other theories. That's an explanation of what the police did wrong. Instead of being unbiased, the were theoreticians out to prove their judgments right.

vkw said...Dave's right about how investigations work. An hypothesis is developed and then evidence is collected to either support it or disregard it. It becomes a problem when the evidence that disregards the hypothesis is not considered and people become unwilling to change their hypothesis. But this is the procedure for scientific study.

Robin B. said...Our discussion here of 'whodunit' makes me think about how much everyone loves a human puzzle to figure out. Also makes me think about how many times law 'enforcement' people get it wrong, or blunder through . . . and how very much background helps - not the big stuff - not the showy stuff - but how much you can learn in quiet conversations with people around crime, if you have an open mind and you have the time to think through connections. I'm guessing Mr. W. was highly frustrated with how all of this turned out.

vkw said...Did anyone find it fascinating how much "evidence" was based on facial expressions, how much someone cried or didn't or how slight changes in a story became focused on? I found that odd but I guess that's all they had back then. I guess during that time if you murdered someone you needed to cry a lot so as to not be considered a suspect.

Dave Fragments said...A lack of emotional response will still get you in trouble with the police even today. It is the preconceived notion that the wrongdoer has no remorse or guilt and that the interviewer can always see deception. Pardon me if I'm a skeptic.

vkw said...Funny: Antisocial personality disorders can mimic human emotion perfectly and read other people nearly perfectly.

Evil Editor said...Perhaps the attitude/beliefs toward mental illness/insanity in this book was a relevant and educational part of the book? It almost seemed you could be accused of a crime because your mom was considered mad.

Robin B. said...Yes, EE, and the misery of a screwed-up household - which can cause the insanity.

Dave Fragments said...Stereotypes: "You came from the wrong side of the tracks" "His father was a criminal and he will be too"

vkw said...Oh I forgot I was going to mention that EE. Not only was I fascinated by the representation of mental illness (especially female mental illness) but about the death of children. To read about children murdered and their murderers getting off lightly . . . was sad. But fascinating when the murder of a wealthy child became so famous. Again . . . how the wealthy are treated and how the poor are treated hasn't changed that much.

Robin B. said...Agree, vkw - class system is alive and well and living...everywhere.

vkw said...I would need to look up the history of psychology to remember when the first idea of genetically link mental illness became prominent. But we do know that it is now and I am sure someone in Victorian England realized the prevalance of schizophrenia or depression in families. I was fascinated how much women got off playing the insane card back then. Well you know we are the weaker sex.

Robin B. said...http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50612F83A5E137B93C1A8178ED85F4C8784F9 Interesting article written less than 20 years after the murder - I got this from the NYT archives.

Evil Editor said...I see The Moonstone can be read online at Project Gutenberg. "The first and greatest detective novel."--T.S. Eliot Bleak House is also referenced an awful lot. The BBC miniseries of Bleak House is excellent.

Robin B. said...The Moonstone - I'll check that out. I noticed, too, that the book was referred to as a novel in the video interview - but it didn't read that way to me. If it had, I'd have been pleased. Funny, but the book last month was pure novel, and I learned a boatload at the same time, about that era in England, without ever being made to feel I was in it for the learning! I'm still glad you had it listed as a Book Chat choice, EE. It's a fascinating case.

Evil Editor said...Well, I wouldn't have listed it if not for the numerous reviews that made it sound great. I appreciate the amount of research that went into it, just which there'd been more restraint with respect to how much of it was put into the book. Speaking of last month's book, I'm halfway through the 2nd Flavia de Luce novel, and loving it.

Robin B. said...Flavia - yep, EE, I'm now totally sold on the series. Ordered the next two books and have already devoured them, and I'm now impatient for #4.

Book Chat 35 Alan Bradley/The Sweetness at the Bottom of the Pie

2011-01-30T07:43:00.000-08:00

Alan [The author] said... Hello, all.

Evil Editor said...Hello, thanks for coming. Usually the longer chats are those for books we didn't like, so I have a feeling this will be a shorter one.

Robin B. said...I've marked my copy of this novel up so much with favorite lines, it looks like I happily studied for a test.

Dave Fragments said...I did like the book and I already sent it to a 12 year old niece.

Sylvia said...I liked the book and am giving it to an 86-year-old friend.

Alan said...I'm happy to hear you gave the book to a 12-year-old reader. I've had mail from readers ranging in age from 8 to 95.

Mother (Re)produces. said...I just finished the book; I had to order the English version, so I haven't had a chance to pass it on to my kids. I can't imagine any child not wanting to be Flavia, though.

Robin B. said...Agree, Mother Re, about kids (of all ages) wanting to be Flavia.

Evil Editor said...So, Flavia is an international sensation?

Alan said...Flavia is doing very well internationally, thanks. At the moment, she's appearing in 34 countries and in 31 languages.

Mother (Re)produces said...The German translation has been well received, to be sure.

Alan said...I did a reading/signing tour of Germany in October. The second book had just appeared in paperback and jumped onto Der Spiegel's bestseller list in about a week. It was wonderful: I had an entourage of four, including a puppeteer! I'm very proud of the German edition, by the way. It's a beautifully designed book .... and its fans are pretty special, too.

Mother (Re)produces said...Puppeteer! Did the puppet yell 'Vale' and jump a lot?

Alan said...One of the puppets (she was a boozy ballerina) climbed into the laps of the gentlemen in the audience, which brought great hoots of laughter from their wives. The event in east Berlin was in a 1930's dance hall that was right out of "Cabaret". I wish you could have seen it.

Evil Editor said...Puppeteers should be a staple of all book readings.

MC said...This was meant for the adult market, right? I was fascinated to see Middle and High schoolers gobble it up.

Alan said...Yes, it was aimed at the adult market, but was also meant for (as they say) anyone who likes that sort of thing.

Dave Fragments said...I liked Flavia's voice. She has a certain snideness that is endearing in a storyteller. And being a scientist who wants to see more scientists come into the world, I like her preoccupation with chemistry. The younger kids might need a dictionary, but by high school they should have that vocabulary. I like that she deduces things. She thinks.

Alan said...I'm glad you like the science in the books. I wanted to recapture that huge surge of power and competency one feels at 11.

Robin B. said...What I loved most of all about your book, Alan, was the voice of Flavia - never too much - just right. She took me right into her world, and kept me there. The story was wonderfully drawn.

Evil Editor said...She's a character one would never tire of. Though that may change when she hits her teens.

stacy said...I adored Flavia. I remember feeling precocious. It was terrific to feel that again, even through another character.

Sylvia said...I loved the fact that although I knew Flavia was unreliable, I was never more than a step ahead of her in solving the mystery. I quite happily followed her on wrong turns.

Alan said...Yes, Sylvia. I follow her on her wrong turns, too! When Flavia walked onto the page, she came equipped with house, family, village, history. I've tried to describe them as I see them, but that doesn't work. I had to learn to shut up and let Flavia describe her world. It's been a lot easier since then.

fairyhedgehog said...I forget she's an unreliable narrator. I got confused by the "Vale" incident, that she didn't know how it was pronounced even though she'd heard it not read it. Or am I misremembering?

Mother (Re)produces. said...No, FHH, you're not. That 'Vale' thing drove me a bit nutty too.

Sylvia said...I was confused by the Vale reference too. I read it as Vail and then when she saw Vale and explained that's how HB had pronounced it, I was a bit surprised.

Alan said...The "vale" utterance hinges upon several different points: she hears Horace Bonepenny say it, and then, during his "confession" she hears her father say it. She also talks to Dr. Kissing. Only one reader, so far, has noticed that the word is in the singular: "vale!" - not "valete" - that Twining was addressing one particular person.

Mother (Re)produces. said...Twining? But he was already dead.

Alan said...Yes, Twining was dead, but his actions were reported by Father. We also had Miss Mountjoy's (the niece's view of things) as well as the retired Dr. Kissing's.

Mother (Re)produces. said...Ok; I'll have to go back and re-read that part; I thought it was Horace who yelled 'Vale' just before he pushed the already dead Twining off the roof...

Sylvia said...Flavia was so interesting to me because I did not find her easy to like at the beginning, she's very condescending. But the small things - the reality - shines through in tiny touches. Her sister's piano playing, missing her father, the details of her mother. They made my heart ache even before I understood the girl in any sort of sensible way.

Mother (Re)produces said...Yes, that's true. I did find Flavia hard to like at the beginning. I still hope to see her get taken down a peg someday, but I find her fear of admitting she's wrong, or has misjudged someone very real for her age. I have to be honest, I worry about the relationship with her father. He was obviously hurt enormously by his father sending him to boarding school, so I suspect he must be trying to open up a bit to his daughters, but finds it impossible without Harriet...

Sylvia said...MotherRe, I thought the father was badly broken both by his father (no role model) and by the loss of his wife. Still, there was never a doubt that he loved his children and was very protective of them. But because he was so flawed, the girls were equally protective of him.

Mother (Re)produces said...I know Sylvia; I think that's not unusual in real life; I just meant that he does talk at length about how his father's distance was so painful to him, I'm kind of waiting for him to figure out how to make good for his daughters. I think he just can't figure out how, given his age and generation and does it by giving them what he thinks they need-piano, literature, or a lab.

Dave Fragments said...After WWW1 and WW2, Britain contained lots of broken or half-broken men. There are quite a few in the literature. Worse yet, the period after WW2 in Britain was a time of deprivation and sacrifice. It wasn't so in the USA where the economy boomed thanks to the industrialization of big cities and the GI Bill.

Alan said...Without giving away any secrets, I can assure you that there's much much more to come about Father - in fact, about all the family. We really only get glimpses of them as Flavia sees fit to reveal.

Sylvia said...Yes, I love that. Little touches - her memory of them passing silly notes during the lectures - kept reaffirming the deep connection between the sisters even as she's telling us that it's her against them. The familial relationships were never in doubt, for me. I'm looking forward to reading more - and it's nice to hear there's quite a bit more to come.

Mother (Re)produces. said...Yes, I knew there must be more. I love the way the girls band together when it really counts, and try to kill each other as a hobby. (Did I mention I have three daughters?) This is very real.

Alan said...Mother, Best regards to your three daughters. I hope they're kinder to one another than the de Luces. I also had two older sisters.

Mother (Re)produces said...Aha! So you're Flavia! :) Yes, they are much kinder than the de Luca, but they do fight, sometimes passionately over meaningless little things; I just meant the shift to being friends again is immediate and 100% when it needs to be.

Dave Fragments said...One thing that did hit me like a brick was the confession by Flavia's father about his friends at the school and the magic. I don't know too many father's who would be that confessional to their 11-year-old daughters. There was more behind that scene than Flavia and him in a room.

Alan said...Yes, there is much more between Father and Flavia than meets the eye. It's important to remember that each book is, so to speak, just one slice of the pie. Not all will be revealed until the end of the last book.

Evil Editor said...Maybe he thought he was talking to Harriet.

Dave Fragments said...Well, EE, I think that Flavia is really unreliable. She's a kid telling HER story and no one else's. She never lets on to her sisters being involved and in the end, they rescue her because they are observant too. There's a wonderful 11-year-old biased vision that we see things through. Part of solving the mystery is seeing the truth behind her somewhat limited vision.

Alan said...I suppose, in a way that Flavia is 11 and in another way, she's 45. I was like that as a I kid, I hate to admit.

Mother (Re)produces. said...Why do you hate to admit it? I never met anyone who grew up completely evenly. I prefer to look like I'm 45 and act like I'm 11.

Robin B. said...Oh, that's interesting - about Flavia and her father. Well, now I absolutely have to keep reading! One of my favorite things about this novel was how, even and especially in turmoil, Flavia's thoughts make you smile. on page 305 of my American paperback version, after 'Pemberton' has her just about cornered, Flavia says, about being told to kick a man in his Casanovas, "the only problem was that I didn't know where the Casanovas were located." Ha! That was wonderful, and it said so much about Flavia.

Evil Editor said...What did you mean, the "last" book, Alan? Has the number of books been set in stone?

Alan said...There are six books presently contracted for. The third is being published next week and I'm at work on the fifth. Will there be more after that? I don't know. The publishers hope there will. Only Flavia knows for sure! But there's a definite six book story arc (I hate that word).

Evil Editor said...I've read all 45 Nero Wolfe books (twice). It would be nice if you could churn out 45 Flavia books.

Sylvia said...The setting and description were wonderful too. Some books (I think especially focused on young protagonists) could take place anywhere; the story has a location but you could pick it up and drop it someplace else with only a minor edit job. Sweetness is so entrenched in its place and time, you couldn't possibly move it, you'd rip out the heart of the story.

Robin B said...How did you decide on the title, Alan?

Alan said...Robin B -The title came before the book - by quite a long time, in fact. I didn't know what it was or what it meant. I put it away in a notebook, and when I was well into the first Flavia book, I realized that I already had the title.

Robin B. said...Alan, that's wonderful about the title coming to you a while back and sitting in your notebook until you were writing the novel. Your brain must've been mapping this story out long before it 'told' you about it! I have also come to loathe the words 'story arc'. That said, I'm now dying to find out about the father and daughter under-the-scene story, so there you go! What I really loved about your opening was that it took its own time - there was no big fanfare - Flavia was trapped in a closet, and she calmly figured her way out of it - and this told the reader everything, well almost everything, they needed to know. Then, in the next scene, we find out in an elegantly 'simple' way, the family set up, ages and all, beginning with the pig tails needing to be put in their 'regulation position'.

stacy said...The keeping her fingers arched while her sisters tied her up told me everything I needed to know about her. And I have to say, being the youngest of three kids, I experienced a lot of my own "adventures" with my siblings - though I was not nearly as resourceful as Flavia. She's wonderfully confident.

Sylvia said...I agree with Robin, the opening scene was brilliant - immediate action and then the explanation, which told us so much about Flavia in such an interesting way.

stacy said...What cracked me up about the opening was that I assumed she was going to be this international spy or something (I knew nothing about the book before reading it). And she turned out to be eleven! I had to laugh at myself for that one.

Robin B. said...I loved the pace. Your novel's popularity tells the tale, doesn't it? The supposed new, must-be-quick-and-sharp way to do fiction doesn't always please the senses of readers.

Alan said...Robin B I'm glad you like the pacing. The book is set in 1950, and couldn't possibly be written to conform to today's pace. It tends to be enjoyed by patient people. :)

Dave Fragments said...Today you would have to deal with cellphones and internet. Almost no reason to go talk to anyone or search a library... It is the journey of discovery that makes a mystery.

Robin B. said...Flat out, I loved this book. I adore her world - the way she wear her mother's clothes that were almost removed in the Purge, the way she locks herself up in her sanctum sanctorum, her actual thinking 'cap...

Dave Fragments said...I've always noticed in most mysteries I've read that something else is happening in the background and almost out of sight of the main character. There are other forces moving around the main character and almost completely out of his or her control. Flavia gets a leg up on the authorities because she found the body. Had she not launched herself into solving the mystery but reported everything to the authorities, the inspector might have found the killer first.

Alan said...Dave, That's true - but then there would have been no story - and no Flavia. I actually tried writing from a third person viewpoint and it simply didn't work. That's when Flavia showed up and took over.

Dave Fragments said...Of course. I didn't mean that as a criticism. I meant it as a compliment. And that POV makes the book. Flavia telling the story is the fun part. No matter how unreliable she is, she's fun.

Sylvia said...Flavia gets a leg up not only because she found the body. She overheard the night-time visitor and saw the jackdaw with the stamp. She had a lot of inside knowledge that wasn't shared. That's what made me laugh when she crowed about how much cleverer she was than them, when really she had a much stronger starting point. I'll give her full credit for noticing the slice missing out of the pie though. That wasn't just luck. And she's a great bluffer - even when talking to herself. My son is like that, too. It was interesting to see from the inside.

Evil Editor said...You know how when you find that special book or movie that strikes a chord with you and you think, No one else could possibly appreciate this to the extent that I do, it's mine!? This is one of those books. Of course you always find out millions of other people feel the same.

Anonymous Alan said...Evil Thanks for your kind comments. The response to Flavia from around the world has been absolutely overwhelming. There are days that I wake up and wonder if I'm in the right body! The books are bestsellers in Taiwan, Norway, the Nehterlands, Japan, Germany - it's humbling to receive such heartfelt letters and to realize that all people, everywhere, have the same problems and aspirations.

Robin B. said...Agree EE - that's exactly how I felt about this book! The 'it's mine' feeling - it's now part of me. This type of book is seldom written.

Evil Editor said...May we assume someone wants to put Flavia on the big screen?

Alan said...Re movies: There have been many offers for movie rights, but as I keep telling them, it makes me extremely uncomfortable to think of someone working my garden while I'm still planting it. I'm responsible to Flavia - and the de Luce family - not to betray them. So maybe someday - but not now.

Sylvia said...Oh yes. Even if you have them planned, it would be very weird to write them while someone else is translating the beginning to screen.

Alan said...Sylvia Exactly!

Mother (Re)produces said...If they try to turn Flavia into a boy, do shoot them for us, ok? I think the world needs a can-do girl.

Robin B. said...Agree, Mother Re. Don't let anyone change the characters or the flavor or the era in a movie, please!

Alan said...No danger of turning Flavia into a boy! I am blessed with the world's best editors. I told them once, "If I ever suggest doing something like "Flavia Goes to Paris" or "Flavia In Hawaii" - shoot me!

Blogger Mother (Re)produces. said...You mean like 'Flavia de Luca and The Arc over the Shark'?

Alan said...That's great "The Arc Over the Shark". May I use that?

Mother (Re)produces. said...No! No! On no account! You promised you wouldn't send her to Hawaii! ;) Of course you may.

stacy said...I was glad to see that the inspector was not exactly a bumbling detective himself. That was refreshing.

Sylvia said...I agree Stacy. If Flavia had been surrounded by incompetent adults, I would not like the story half as much. The fact that she was resourceful and had access to information and avenues that they didn't worked for me.

Robin B. said...I agree, Stacy, about the detective. I liked him, and expected him not to make a mess of things. It was also nice to see him treat Flavia with respect. In the end, when he's drinking tea in her lab, that was a gorgeous scene. Close to two equals.

Mother (Re)produces. said...True, I think part of the fun is that she gets (even if grudging) admiration from adults, which is a position that a lot of 11yos would like to be in...

stacy said...I loved that she used that adult dismissiveness to her advantage sometimes, though.

Alan said...Stacy, Like many 11 year olds, Flavia is a master manipulator - perhaps by necessity.

Evil Editor said...I wonder if the detective, now that he has a new appreciation for Flavia's detecting talents, will be consulting her on his toughest cases.

Alan said...Again with Inspector Hewitt - and his wife, Antigone - there's much more to come.

Mother (Re)produces. said...Ha! Well, with a name like Antigone, that was a bit of a dead give away, wasn't it. I liked the inspector.

Robin B. said...Oh yes, I forgot the inspector's wife was named 'Antigone'. I need to go back and do my due diligence, looking at the myths and stories with these names! I enjoyed the conversation re the name Ophelia, in the novel, that Flavia had with the Dr.

Dave Fragments said..."Antigone" is a name from a bygone and lost era in Britain.

Sylvia said...you've completed three out of six, right?

Alan said...Sylvia, Yes, three out of six are now complete, and I'm at work on the fourth. Enjoying it hugely.

stacy said...I'll be keeping up with the series, as well.

Dave Fragments said...Like I said at the top. I enjoyed the book and had fun with the characters. It's a comfortable read. I'm going to go off an order the next two. I might not read them until late summer but I'll have them around for those dread times when I need to relax and recharge the batteries. When I started this book, it inspired my own little writing binge. the more I enjoy the book, the more I find ways to s write my own silly little short stories.

Alan said...That's great, dave. I encourage you to go for it! The ones who succeed are the ones who never quit.

Dave Fragments said...As someone once said to me: That's the law of the pushover -- "if you push hard enough and long enough, she falls over."

stacy said...Alan, I read your interview at the back of the book. I was amused at how Flavia literally walked onto the page. Is she easy to keep writing, even into the fourth book? She's such a strong character, it seems like she would be. I can't wait to give this to my 14 year-old niece. I think she would really benefit from reading about a girl with such confidence.

Alan said...Flavia is never difficult to write. As long as I don't try to take over and express any of MY ideas! It's a listening process.

Robin B. said...I am so happy that this is the first of a series. I'd seen the second book when I was on Amazon ordering this one, so I knew there was at least a sequel, but now, that's not enough.

Alan said...Robin B, Yes, book three "A Red Herring Without Mustard" will be out on Feb 8th. It's gorgeous - it simply glows! They've also gone back to a hard cover, as with "Sweetness."

Alan said...In conclusion, I might point out that the only one that Flavia treats as an equal is Dogger.

Sylvia said...I should have put in a good word for Dogger too. I saw Flavia as protective over him as her father.

Robin B. said...Mmm. About Dogger - I'll reread parts of the novel with that in mind.

Dave Fragments said...PS - Dogger seems to be Auntie Mame in disguise.

Alan said...Dave LOL!

Evil Editor said...I think you've answered everyone, Alan, and gone above and beyond.

Mother (Re)produces. said...I can't wait to see what my eldest daughter (whose middle name is Flavia, by the way) makes of the book!

Robin B. said...Thanks so much for talking with us today. This has been pure pleasure.

Alan said...Many thanks for asking me. I look forward to hearing from you all again.

Sylvia said...Thank you for coming to talk to us, Alan!

Robin B. said... Amazon pre-order, here I come!

Book Chat 34 Louis Sachar/Holes

2011-01-08T11:31:00.001-08:00

stacy said...I really dug this book. Can't wait to box it up and send it to my niece.

Robin S. said...I LOVED this book. Loved. Had never read it before, but wow. It deserved to win awards.

stacy said...I loved it, too. I didn't think the originality was so much in the main character as in the story itself.

Evil Editor said...I thought it was very clever.

fairyhedgehog said...hi

stacy said...Fairyhedgehog won't be able to make it due to signal issues.

Dave F. said...I saw the movie years ago and read the book this past month. Nice story and so easy to read.

Evil Editor said...Is the movie good?

Robin S. said...I've never seen the movie.

Dave F. said...The movie is slightly different to accommodate the stars. For instance, the warden is more apparent because in the movie it's Sigourney Weaver and you don't write a small part for an actress of her caliber. She's true to the book but looms much larger. I liked the story when I first saw it in the movie. It is unusual or shall we say fantastical enough to interest a kid and warm enough for adults to enjoy.

stacy said...I haven't seen the movie yet, personally. I'm going to queue this on Netflix. But the scenes were so on fire I kept imagining how the story would work in a movie. I think the warden was a young version of my second-grade teacher. I always said she had the personality better suited for a prison warden. I loved Zero. Great character.

Robin S. said...What drew me in was the voice of the narrator. Funny and sweet and ironic without being over the top. I love the voice. The story came second, to me. Then I got into it.

stacy said...I also found the Girl Scouts references amusing.

Evil Editor said...It was nice that the connections between the present and past were left for the reader to figure out, rather than spelled out, as some authors would have done, thinking their young audience wouldn't get it.

stacy said...Yeah, I liked that, too, EE.

Robin S. said...Agree. This author believed in his readers.

Dave F. said...In the movie they are spelled out in a montage ending so the audience could see the connection between Madame Zeroni and the kids. But it doesn't intrude drastically into the tone and main story.

stacy said...There were moments of real suspense, too, like when Stanley runs away from Camp Green Lake, and his canteen is empty, empty, empty. Really loved that passage. I went back and read that a couple of times.

Dave F. said...I liked the relative non-threatening atmosphere. It takes being sent away from parents and made to work like a criminal (which should scare kids into nightmares) and makes it not-threatening but not inconsequential. A very nice tone of voice and very kid friendly.

stacy said...I thought it was a nice balance between being dark and humorous.

Robin S. said...Like The Graveyard Book, it seems to me Holes is one of the crossover novels that adults related to as well as the kids.

fairyhedgehog said...I'm mostly lurking because of connection problems. I did love the book.

stacy said...The nicknames the kids gave each other cracked me up.

Zachary Gole said...This was a very sad book, in some ways. Sure, everything worked out for a happy ending in the present day story, but the fates of some of the characters in the past were quite tragic. I'm not saying that as a negative. Books don't have to have completely happy endings, of course. Just wasn't expecting it, I guess.

Dave F. said...I never thought of this as heavy-hearted or sad. The movie ends more explicitly than the book... It reunites Zero with his Mother and Stanley's family use their foot odor fortune to help all the kids.

Robin S. said...As far as the sadness goes, especially in the background of the families, etc. - I think it's told in such a way as to 'manage' the sadness for the reader. And Stanley has to face down the curse demons to move on with his life - that's what every kid has to do, in a way. Dave, you mentioned the movie makes everything all tied up with a neat bow in the end. I don't love that, to be honest. Ex: the first Quiet American in the late 1950's refashioned much of what Graham Greene was trying to say, in order to be Hollywood enough. In 2002 the movie was remade to mirror Greene's actual vision, and was incredibly well done.

Dave F. said...Well Robin, Disney made the movie and did a spectacular job but true to Disney, it's all happy and warm and fuzzy and sweetness at the end. The spectacular part is the kids acting all through it. Disney (and the director) knew enough to keep the adult actors as supporting the kids. There are a lot of characters in this story.

Zachary Gole said...The book also reunited Zero with his mother, didn't it? At least, while I don't remember it explicitly saying so, I certainly assumed the woman singing to Zero at the end was his mother. (And that, though again I don't recall it explicitly saying this, that's presumably what Zero had hired the private investigator for, to find his mother.)

stacy said...I thought the book hinted that Zero was also reunited with his mother? There was a woman who was there at the end who recited the poem as she's watching Zero (sleep?). I got the impression that was Zero's mother.

Dave F. said...the book ending leaves that reunion to the reader. We smile and know she's his Mother. The movie, by the nature of the picture rather than the words actually has to show that reunion and not just point at it. It's the difference between words and pictures.

stacy said...I thought the book tied up things nicely for the main characters. I think that movies sometimes have to be more explicit just by the fact that they're things people are viewing. I want to see that version of the Quiet American. I've read the book.

Robin S. said...One of my very favorite chapters was the one with Onion Sam and Katherine, and the schoolhouse fixing, and the kiss in the rain. That was beautiful. To me, what Sachar is exquisitely good at is understating to make a powerful point.

Zachary Gole said...I liked some of the little character details, too, to give the characters their individual quirks and personalities. One that stood out for me was the Warden's rattlesnake venom nail polish. We only saw her using it once (and heard her threatening to use it once more), but that was enough to establish it as an interesting part of her character, and highlight her cruelty and deviousness. I thought that was an especially neat gimmick for a villainess of a children's book; frankly, it was an imaginative enough villainous character trait it would have been perfectly at home in a much more serious and darker-themed book, which made its use here particularly effective.

stacy said...That gave the story a bit of a darker tone.

fairyhedgehog said...I liked the voice, the way the curse made sense of the story, and how it all wove together. There were some very tense moments too that almost had me peeking at the ending.

Dave F. said...Sacher reveals only pertinent details we see them like a half-blurred photo -- only the important parts are clear and precise, the rest of the character is there but not there. That's the way our eyes really see the world.

Zachary Gole said...Yeah, normally I would be bothered by the fact that the story was driven by so many big coincidences. (That kind of drove me crazy about Jane Eyre.) But in this case, the background with the curse made sense of it all, because there was the implication that these might not really be just the result of chance, but of some sort of power of fate that links the characters together. That made the coincidences much easier to swallow.

Evil Editor said...I liked that we weren't told why the kids were being forced to dig holes at first. Was it just labor like crushing rocks on a chain gang? We're they digging graves for themselves?

Robin S. said...Agree, Dave, on the half-blurred photos idea! It comes together in pieces and it works so well that way. I believed in the beginning, EE, that the hole digging really was just about punishment, and it made my blood boil.

Zachary Gole said...EE -- Yeah, definitely, I think it's better to leave some mystery at first and only gradually reveal what's going on, and this book did a good job of that. First you just know they're digging holes, then you know the Warden wants to be brought anything interesting they find and you suspect there's some other purpose to it, then when Stanley finds a fossil and is told the Warden isn't interested in that you get the idea she's looking for something specific... much better to build it up gradually like that than if the book had just revealed at the outset what the Warden's real motive was.

Robin S. said...Agree absolutely, Zachary - it unfolds beautifully. And I like how the past is interwoven. Also, Sachar is really good with bringing the reader right into how characters are feeling. I have the last para in Chap 19 marked especially for that.

Dave F. said...The little kindness of teaching reading is returned in that Zero is the one reading the label on the suitcase they dug up. Such a nice subtle, detail of the story.

stacy said...Oh, yeah, I love that, Dave. I hadn't even thought about that.

Robin S. said...Dave, I hadn't thought about that, either. Thanks for that!

stacy said...What's interesting to me is that the author leaves the reader to decide what s/he believes. Is the story driving by destiny and fate? It is if you believe the curse. In that case, events aren't coincidental - they only seem so. Yet, you don't have to believe that to accept the logic of the story, I don't think. I wonder if "coincidence" in Jane Eyre is really just a different take on life from a different time. Back then, I think, people were much more open to the idea of fate as a driving force in our lives.

Robin S. said...I like it in this novel that the curse/fate holding Stanley back, because he can use it to blame everything that goes wrong in his life - that he has to beat that back in order to free himself, literally and figuratively. And I also liked the way the past, though not a curse, does travel down the years in this book to explain the present.

stacy said...I liked that, too, Robin. But I loved that you don't really know if it's the curse or just Stanley coming into his own.

Robin S. said...Yeah, I see what you mean, Stacy, about the curse. When I read about it, I kept thinking about a relative of mine, who, every time something went wrong, even something small, she'd mutter about how 'a person just can't win'. Of course, that doomed her.

stacy said...OMG, that's pretty much my extended family, right there.

Zachary Gole said...I thought the handling of Zero's character was well done, too. The Warden and her assistants were always going on about how he was too stupid to learn to read, for instance... and yet we saw that, even before he learned to read, Zero had exceptional mathematical skills, that the adults at the camp just hadn't bothered to notice. And again, this was presented with subtlety; the book never had the narrator explicitly point out that Zero's math skills implied he wasn't as stupid as the adults at the camp claimed. It just left this as another thing for the reader to put together.

Robin S. said...Agree, Zachary - it comes down to the writer trusting his readers. And being damn good. I read that Louis Sachar rewrites/does several edits, and I think it shows in the subtlety in this novel.

stacy said...I love it when characters break out of the mold that's been set for them in the story. I'm definitely going to be checking out Sachar's other work.

Evil Editor said...I saw a couple of his books in B & N a couple days ago, but not the sequel to Holes. Something called There's a Boy in the Girl's Bathroom...or vice versa.
No matter how young the books we do are intended for, we seem to like them if well done. Do I dare choose a kindergarten picture book?

stacy said...Well, EE, that might fit with the busy schedules we all seem to have! : ) I'm looking forward to the next couple of books in the queue, too. I got the Suspicions of Mr. Whicher for Christmas. Just have to order the Sweetness one. But I gotta say, this one was an excellent pick. I can't wait to send it on to my niece. Maybe I'll pick up a few other Newbery reads as well.

Dave F. said...Sacher makes almost no note of race. As the author, he simply places the facts at strategic points and lets the reader's mind do the work. It's a few chapters before he says anything about the race of the kids and it is very, very subtle when he reveals that Onion Man Sam is African American. There's a very powerful lesson in the book but it's not heralded or announced in neon.

stacy said...I have to wonder if that wasn't a publishing decision, though, Dave. It seems like every "mainstream" book I read that has minority characters, it's always "subtly done." It happened with Gaiman's ANANSI BOYS. You wouldn't know right away that the MC was black. And I have to wonder whether that's intentional so as not to scare readers off.

Dave F. said...I noticed it in the book more than the movie. We see the characters in the movie and Onion Man Sam was played by Dule Hill (an excellent actor) and Hector Zeroni by Khleo Thomas, (another excellent actor) ... But in the book, we are left to our own minds and Sachar waits for a number of pages, maybe even a chapter or two before he reveals race. It's built into the story but very quiet. If I was teaching this story to kids in a classroom, I would definitely teach about race. Back in Europe, the very exotic Madame Zeroni would be Romany or Gypsy mixed race. Europe looks down on the gypsies.

Zachary Gole said...Actually, I'd assumed at first Madame Zeroni was probably Romany, which is why it surprised me that Zero was black. (I'd figured out he was Madame Zeroni's descendant fairly early on.) But I guess it's entirely possible that Madame Zeroni's son had married a black woman, or something similar had happened further down the line, so Zero was mostly black but with some Romany blood.

Robin S. said...I was embarrassed that it took me so long to get from 'Zero' to 'Zeroni'. Seriously. I think I was just letting the story flow over me.

Zachary Gole said...Oh, another very interesting and subtle touch that just occurred to me -- a bit of ambiguity in the story I quite liked. When Mr. Sir, after withholding water from Stanley, finally fills his canteen... but does so in a suspicious way, so Stanley concludes he's put something in the water and doesn't drink it. We never find out just what Mr. Sir put into the canteen. We never actually find out for sure whether in fact he did put anything in the canteen -- for all we know, he just filled it the way he did to make Stanley nervous, and the water was perfectly fine and Stanley could have drunk it with no ill effect. I like that there were details like this that the story intentionally left unexplained, that it didn't assume the reader had to know everything.

stacy said...I thought that part was well-done, too, Zachary. I like how he didn't tie up every loose end. Definitely gives the reader pause.

Evil Editor said...Presumably Sylvia will arrive any minute, having miscalculated the time.

Sylvia said...Er, good morning? I had the time right but I dozed off and only just woke up. :/

Book Chat 33 Thomas Pynchon/Inherent Vice

2010-12-04T11:59:00.000-08:00

Dave F. said...{Expletives, many of them, deleted} I won't be able to discuss the book today. I have a truck in a sinkhole to deal with. I liked the book and I think I heard it's being discussed as a film... AINT IT COOL NEWS has the story:
http://www.aintitcool.com/node/47639 There's also a video of Pynchon talking about the book that's worth a lookie-see.

Evil Editor said...Welcome, chattel.

Zachary Gole said...Didn't quite manage to finish the book, unfortunately (for the same reason I haven't been here the last week or two -- first focused on finishing my NaNoWriMo novel, and then taking some time off for decompression), but I got through most of it (and still intend to read the rest, even if I didn't get to it in time for the chat). I admit at first it didn't really grab me, and I thought it was going to be a bit of a slog, but around page 22, when the protagonist is arrested by Bigfoot, it started getting interesting to me. I'd never read anything by Pynchon before... he was on my (very long) list of authors I figured I ought to be more familiar with and planned to read someday.

Evil Editor said...I thought this was well done. Take the noir detective novel like The Maltese Falcon or The Big Sleep, and set it in the drug era in California with a hippie Private Eye...I was liking it until a chapter that I think was an acid trip, which lost me for a while, but then I got back into it. Lots of characters, some of whom are gone so long I can barely remember who they were, but the main character(s) were great and the plot was ingenious. No idea if I'd like other Pynchon, as this isn't his normal genre and style, but I may read this again one day.

Zachary Gole said...Yeah; like I said, it didn't grab me at first, but that may be just because it's not a genre I usually read, so it took me a while to get into it. Once I did get into it, I enjoyed it; I tend to like stories that involve a lot of diverse characters whose paths keep crossing in different ways, and there were always enough questions still unanswered to keep the anticipation high. I especially liked the complicated relationship between Doc and Bigfoot... or actually, when it comes to it, between pretty much any pair of characters who interacted significantly. There weren't really any straightforward friendships or foeships here; the interactions between characters tended to be a more complex mix of cooperation, rivalry, and one-upsmanship.

Evil Editor said...Normally we have half a dozen people who remember to show up. Guess they're out Christmas shopping. Yes, the Bigfoot/Doc relationship (which you probably haven't reached the end of) is the one that stands out.

Zachary Gole said...The acid trip bit (if it's the one I think you're referring to) threw me a little too, because it was the first fantastic element in what had till then been a story that, while perhaps not strictly speaking entirely grounded in reality, was at least free of any element of the supernatural. And it seemed a little late in the book to be suddenly throwing something like that in. But yeah, it was a bump in the road, but it didn't derail the book completely for me.

Evil Editor said...Can't imagine the LAPD liking the book. They took a hit in LA Confidential among others. They used to have a good rep in the Dragnet days.

Zachary Gole said...Hm... since it's a period piece, though, I don't know whether the LAPD would find it quite as bothersome as if it were set in the present day. Sure, it portrays the LAPD as having been corrupt in the sixties, but that's not quite the same thing as explicitly claiming they're so corrupt now. Still, yeah, not exactly complimentary.

Evil Editor said...I liked the massive number of references to movies, TV shows, music. Hawaii 5-0, Gilligan's Island, Beach Boys. Helped keep it grounded in its time. Took a lot of research, I'm sure, making sure he didn't screw up.

Zachary Gole said...Yeah, the amount of research that would have to go into a period piece like this is impressive. There's the geography, too; I live in the Los Angeles area, so I was familiar with most of the locations he described (though I'm sure they've changed a lot in the last forty years), and there was nothing that struck me as obviously off.

Evil Editor said...I guess it's kinda silly having a chat with just two, so I suggest we let those who couldn't make it submit their comments at their convenience. Possibly we'll try a weekday for the next one. Having finished the book about five minutes before the chat, and you not having finished it, I'm sure we'll think of more things to say with time. And others will chime in.

Zachary Gole said...Yeah, a two-person chat does seem sort of silly, and rather than strain for things to say to keep the chat going, it's probably best to leave it as you suggest. Maybe there'll be more people next time...

Evil Editor said...Sorry your first chat wasn't more fun, Zachary. The next one will be better, as everyone will feel guilty about missing this one.

~ ~ ~

stacy said...S%^&!!!!!!!!!!!!!I just moved back to Chicago and in my mind I'm still on Eastern time. So sorry! Guilt is right. I hope you come back, Zachary!

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As you can see, my cat says Hello.

Book Chat 32 Nancy Mauro/New World Monkeys

2010-11-06T10:03:00.000-07:00

Stephen Prosapio said...Just a "kwik" hello and best of luck. Sorry but out here on the left coast 7 AM comes mighty early on a Saturday. I've got the book and it looks like a great read! Best of luck with it!!!

Dave F. said...I'm here. I think. Did anyone else see the video interview with Nancy Mauro? It's up on youtube under her name.

Evil Editor said...I thought this was one of our better books, but feel free to disagree. It combined the quality of good literary fiction with some hilarious situations.

fairyhedgehog said...I thought it was well-written with some clever and unusual ideas but I didn't enjoy it.

Dave F. said...I started out wondering and then found the cat lady librarians. Even their names were kittenish and gossipy.

stacy said...I did love the whole Persian and Ginger thing. I loved it up until Lily ran away from Lloyd's violent molestation of Audiophile. Then my love turned to hate.

fairyhedgehog said...Has everyone finished the book? I don't have to worry about spoilers?

stacy said...Too late, Fairy. I just spilled the beans. Seems I can derail a chat even when I've read the book. I didn't hate the book, mind you, but that was the moment I started to hate Lily.

Dave F. said...Lloyd was creepy. But consider that the movie Jackass 3d opened with a slam-bang weekend box office and it's basically guys superglueing themselves together naked and trying not to kill each other with high explosives and runaway recreational vehicles. That's the Lloyd creeping into all of us.

Evil Editor said...I had a feeling the pervert/Lily relationship would bother a lot of readers.

fairyhedgehog said...At first, the perv reminded me of the Royal Porcupine in Lady Oracle by Margaret Atwood but then I found the whole ripping-the-panties-off episode felt like a step too far for me.

stacy said...It's not even her friendship with Lloyd that bothered me. It's that she knew what he was and she still ran away when he did exactly what he said he would. I just . . . I felt like it was some literary crap about cowardly behavior. Like, if we're honest with ourselves, we might do the same thing. I found that utterly un-insightful, because NOT all of us would run. ESPECIALLY if we knew Lloyd and were exposed to his behavior prior to that. Just how disturbing does a person's behavior have to be before Lily would step up?

Evil Editor said...One can hope she wouldn't have run away if Audiophile hadn't left Lloyd lying on the floor in excruciating pain.

stacy said...Yeah, one would hope. The thing is, I was totally with her up until that point. There were parts that made me laugh out loud, and my limited exposure to the ad industry made me feel like I "got" those parts.

Dave F. said...to be serious, Lloyd is like "perversion light." He peeps and better for Lily, he peeps on dirty clothes and shapeless old women. UNTIL, he soft talks a girl into taking off her panties. Now that's hard core perversion. It can be rationalized as altogether different than merely sneaking peepers from roofs. We've gone from the morally ambiguous that we can laugh at to the morally repugnant that isn't funny (to our minds). There are examples of sniffing being played for great laughs without that repugnance.

fairyhedgehog said...I agree with Dave that until the pantie incident the voyeurism seems relatively harmless as these things go. Then it really does escalate.

Robin S. said...I'm on the fence - there's a lot to like - many good sections, many excellent passages, well-constructed. But I didn't engage in the way I do when I'm down into the fictive dream, and living it along with the characters. Maybe that was the point, though?

fairyhedgehog said...I was struggling because I found the characters unlikeable but after Duncan killed the dog I was just reading to get to the end.

Dave F. said...People are unlikeable. Some dogs are unlikeable. It's just the way the world is.

fairyhedgehog said...This is true, Dave, but I just can't enjoy reading about killing a dog simply because it's unlikeable and an inconvenience.

Evil Editor said...Apparently FH can't forgive the killing of the dog, but it did allow the finding of the collar, which was the clincher as far as the guilt was concerned. Plus they were gonna find the backyard dig if the dog wasn't eliminated. Plus, it's a fictional dog.

stacy said...Hah. Good point, EE. It's a fictional molestation, too.

Nancy said...Hi, I'm Nancy, the author of New World Monkeys. Sorry I'm late--just put my parents in a cab for the airport. Glad to join you today.

stacy said...Strong feelings about Lily here, Nancy.

Evil Editor said...Welcome Nancy. Okay, no more critical comments.

Nancy said...No, go ahead, criticize away...Lily does tend to..uh, polarize the audience. Duncan and Lily have a negative character arc--I wanted to write about people doing the wrong thing. And what might come of it. Definitely not a redemptive Oprah pick.

Evil Editor said...Did Lily run from the library because Lloyd knew she killed the boar and because Lloyd knew she'd been peeping?

Nancy said...I think Lily fled the library because she felt herself complicit--it's the point in the story where she realizes she's been following her head versus her gut. Realizes what damage this might have done to her marriage. But that realization, I think, had to play out between her and her husband. Not her and Lloyd. That's why she scrams.

Evil Editor said...Recalling that Lily wanted to intervene when she saw the dentist possibly dying, and was prevented from doing so by Lloyd, I wonder if her failure to intervene when she saw Lloyd molesting Audiophile was partly related.

stacy said...In retrospect, now that I've had a little time to think about it, I guess I shouldn't have been surprised by Lily's response to the molestation, given that she didn't call the police when she witnessed the dentist passing out from the gas.

Dave F. said...It is a parable of a society gone wrong and so conflicting and subverting the sacred bonds of marriage that a couple completely miss the love signals each sends to the other. It's a darling I love you but I must beat you into the ground to prove it. Honey, you've let your hairyness bloom and I no longer want my manly legs against your hairy, manly legs but I haven't stopped loving you. If the damn dog wouldn't dig up the body of my dead ancestor and munch on the bones, we might have peace in the world...that sort of illogic. About a third of the way through the book I thought "what the hell is going on here" and then I abandoned myself to the snarky humor. Then it turned into a romance and my feminine side took over and "Love Story" bloomed throughout the rest of the book. (seriously, I giggled a lot over their awkward attempts at getting back together).

stacy said...Dave, that was actually the part I loved about the book, and one of the things that kept me reading. I felt like Nancy really nailed that aspect of love between two people. Like they're still in love but for some reason they keep missing each other's signals. And the thing is, I'm not much into books about relationships. But this one really pulled me in. I loved the honesty about the mustache and the pimples on the ass and all of that, because that's what people get when they're in relationships. It's not all flowers and sunshine. And it was funny. Duncan was funny.

Dave F. said...They were always in love with each other. It's just sometimes love needs a boost from a feral pig. Now that sounds odd but how many times to you see old, bickering couples who just won't budge off their rock-hard positions of opposition to each other one minute and then next are humping in bed like minks? (well not quite that vivid example)...I could see some of my friends' marriages in this. Like when I see fights that don't make sense. But they fight.

stacy said...Um, I don't often see that, Dave. I just find it hard to get my head around the notion that she wouldn't at least try to get a sucker punch in on Lloyd. I guess maybe that's actually a cool part of the book. This is something this character would do that I don't think I would do. But hopefully I'll never know.

Evil Editor said...How they misinterpreted everything was the saddest part, and in a way the funniest. Or maybe the funniest part was the hilarious ad campaign. I kept waiting for someone to object to the whole idea. I realize we're farther from Vietnam than we were from WWII when Hogan's Heroes and Catch-22 etc. came out, but...

stacy said...Yeah, the ad thing was pretty hilarious. Actually, all the ad people were pretty hilarious.

Nancy said...The ad part was fun to write. It's actually not too far off the mark. Well, the discussions that go on in the agency are pretty realistic. In reality we'd never get a campaign like that out the door.

Dave F. said...The Vietnam Ad campaign made me squirm. And the ad men coworkers were (to say the minimum) distasteful.

stacy said...They were. So was Anne. But in a hilarious way.

Nancy said...This book actually started off as a short story. It was only from Duncan's POV. He was a copywriter who quit the agency world to write a novel about Vietnam. Took the house upstate with his wife for the summer to both sort out their issues and write the 'novel'. Later, when I blew it out to a novel someone suggested that I put Duncan back in the ad world because no one would want to read a novel about someone writing a novel. But I didn't want to lose the Vietnam part completely.

stacy said...I think the Vietnam part worked really well. How long did you work as an art director and copywriter, Nancy, if you don't mind my asking?

Nancy said...Stacy, I have been in and out of advertising for 14 years. I'm writing full time now, but I go back to freelance now and then. It's nice to be around people after working at home for years at a time.

stacy said...Yes, working from home all the time can get lonely.

Dave F. said...Well, at least I didn't call ad people - creepy, soul-sucking loons with no morals and the social consciousness of ferrets. I did work in PR for a couple years and as an engineer, it was the most revolting job I could do. I wanted my numbers, my glassware, my analyses back. I am bad on camera answering questions and I am too scientific to write an ad campaign like "stand up and deliver."

fairyhedgehog said...It's interesting to hear how the novel started out. About the dog: in The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night Time the death of a dog is the precipitating incident for the whole story and somehow I was able to cope with that. I didn't quite follow Duncan's motivation for killing it.

Evil Editor said...I think he killed it partly for the same reason he sped away when his car damage was spotted (panic at the prospect of being exposed), but also because he didn't kill the boar.

Nancy said...Fairyhedgehog, I think Duncan needed to kill that dog since he flubbed with the wild boar. Kind of like his second shot at manhood.

Dave F. said...Oog, the great hunter, returning from the kill with the beast, the fearsome poodle. That's going to have me giggling all day.

fairyhedgehog said...That makes sense. He was so cross that she "didn't give him the chance to do it" but it was clear that however long she'd waited wouldn't have been long enough.

Evil Editor said...Honey, I know you'll never forgive me for not killing the boar, but hey, I killed a poodle! That's something, isn't it?

Sylvia said...I did laugh ruefully as I realised that was his intent.

Dave F. said...Remember Gary Larson of THE FAR SIDE's take on hunter/gatherers ... Vegetarian cavemen carrying a giant carrot back to the cave on their shoulders...I am man! I kill!

Robin S. said...I've known many a couple with a stronger wife than husband - mentally, most especially.

stacy said...I have, too. But I think in the end Duncan had a different kind of strength, something that survived her little jabs.

Dave F.said...What nationality was Lily? I can't get that straight in my head. I thought she was Vietnamese but then I thought that was so wrong.

Nancy said...Dave, I saw Lily as having some sort of Germanic heritage. Rather stern!

Dave F. said...I saw Lily as Lucy Liu. That made the Vietnam sequences even creepier. I definitely found a Christmas gift in the book.

Robin S. said...I've been looking through my copy for passages I marked...pg 205 of the paperback - " The three men give her a long, unfriendly look, as if assessing the price she'd fetch in John Deere replacement parts." That made me smile. Enjoyed this line on page 286 - "Because when you unearth your own private civilization...you've got to do all the work yourself."

Evil Editor said...I think I have a pretty good vocabulary, but it felt like every other page I was encountering a word I wasn't familiar with. Did you get 100% on you vocabulary SATs, Nancy?

Nancy said...EE, I'm Canadian so no SATs for me!

Dave F. said...I watched your bookstore interview and were the couple you spoke of real friends or were they a composite? The discussion of the guy turning hairy and feral might create some friction between friends.

Nancy said...Dave, they were a composite. I hate showing up to readings and just reading.

Evil Editor said...Did anyone else think, when a chapter ended with a cannon firing and the phone going dead, that Skinner had fired the cannon into their house? I went through the next few chapters wondering why no characters were mentioning this, before I finally went back and confirmed that it hadn't necessarily happened.

fairyhedgehog said...It was certainly very vivid and there are images that will stick with me. I wasn't clear why Duncan didn't get the car seen to. Every time he drove back to the country there was the risk of discovery. It did ratchet up the tension!

stacy said...It was vivid. I think that's why I reacted so strongly to Lily bolting.

Sylvia said...Having been in a marriage that failed slowly, I found the relationship interactions incredibly realistic - in fact uncomfortably so.

stacy said...I did too, Sylvia. That's one of the things that I loved about the book.

fairyhedgehog said...I really didn't expect them to get back together at the end.

Nancy said...It's funny because I've had some people (especially those who've been divorced) comment that the book was an eerie mirror on the last days of their marriage. Others have said "why aren't they nicer to each other?" The answer, of course, because then there would be no book...

stacy said...The book definitely went in a direction I didn't expect, which is always a good surprise, even if it doesn't feel that way at first. I expected the boar to be the thing that held them together, and in a way, that turned out to be the case. But not the way I expected. It seemed to be the glue that held them together whether they liked it or not. They both had to stay quiet if they wanted any chance of . . . getting away with it, for lack of a better term.

Sylvia said...The constant undertones and subtext, real and imagined, is what really rang true for me. There were times when I hoped someone would slap them. Even if it was Skinner! ;)

Dave F. said...I've seen couples position themselves into hating each other. One couple in particular, one side just took the bickeringly childish opposition to the other. It was up is down and white is black type thing. After a few weeks, it was all out war and the offenses kept building and achieved monumental proportions.

Robin S. said...Actually, my divorce took place almost precisely because I was stronger than my husband, He was much taller, much 'bigger' physically, but I was stronger. Always was. It bored me after a while.

Evil Editor said...No man is man enough for you, Robin.

stacy said...The relationship stuff closely mirrored some of my own. As Sylvia said, sometimes uncomfortably so. Really made me feel for them as a couple. I was hoping they'd be able to work things out.

Evil Editor said...All the theories on how the nanny met her death were plausible. You should write a police procedural or mystery, Nancy.

stacy said...EE, that was another thing in the book that kind of surprised me - that they never solved her death. I expected they would. I kind of liked that they didn't.

Nancy said...I'm working on a second novel now that somehow has developed a whodunnit element. Although it's about a donut.

Robin S. said...It seems a natural progression for you, Nancy. I enjoy well-done literary suspense/thrillers/whodunits/what-have-you - Dennis Lehane comes to mind.

Dave F. said...After watching BRAVO's reality show on pastry chefs, I can believe there could be a murder in a donut shop. Some of those contestants aren't wrapped too tight.

stacy said...What's the title of the second book, Nancy?

Nancy said...I think the next book will be called Shelf Life. We'll see how it rolls out.

Evil Editor said...I guess we should wrap things up. Most generous of you to give up your time for us Nancy. Let us know when your next book comes out; I'm sure you've made some fans.

Nancy said...Thank you guys so much for reading and reacting and inviting me to join today!

Book Chat 31 Jesse Petersen/Married with Zombies

2010-10-16T11:57:00.000-07:00

Jesse Petersen said...I'm here! Hi everyone!

Evil Editor said...Hi Jesse. Thanks for coming. Don't say anything important, as some people aren't here yet.

Jesse Petersen said...LOL, I may not say anything important at all. ;)

Evil Editor said...So, Jesse, I understand you were (are?) a historical romance writer. Was it hard convincing your agent to try to sell your zombie apocalypse novel?

Jesse Petersen said...Absoutely not! My agent LOVES fantasy and I think she about came out of her chair when I said I was writing a zombie comedy to amuse myself. She was very encouraging. She's a great agent, though. She says her biggest benefit is that she gets to read all my stuff first since she's a fan, too. So she rocks.

Evil Editor said...
Jesse: I wanna try something new. Branch out.
Agent: Whattaya got in mind?
Jesse: Zombies.
Agent: No, seriously, whattaya got in mind?

Dave F. said...Zombies, what fun. I'm warning you guys, I'm from the area where George Romero filmed the original Night of the Living Dead.

stacy said...Yeah, this was a fun novel.

Jesse Petersen said...Dave F, lucky you! I'm hoping to meet him during ZomBcon next week! And Stacy, I'm so glad you enjoyed it!

ril said...So, uh, why Zombies...?

Jesse Petersen said...ril, I honestly did just write the book to entertain myself. I had a really strong scene in my head where Dave and Sarah go to their therapist's office only to discover she's been zombie-fied and have to kill her. It made me laugh and so I kept writing it. And writing it. And about 2/3 of the way through I started to believe my agent when she said she thought she could sell it. LOL

sylvia said...Your agent sounds great. So encouraging !

Phoenix said...Now I have to know: Who is your amazing agent, Jesse?

Jesse Petersen said...Phoenix, my kick-ass agent is Miriam Kriss of the Irene Goodman Literary Agency. I adore her. I'm very lucky to have her, for sure.

stacy said...I understand there's going to be a sequel?

Jesse Petersen said...Stacy -- at this point there are three books in the series! FLIP THIS ZOMBIE comes out January 1. And EAT SLAY LOVE is out June 1, 2011! In FLIP, Sarah and Dave start their zombie extermination business. And in ESL, they have to, you know, maybe save the world with the help of a coked up rocker and a former TMZ type tabloid reporter...

Dave F. said...I've seen a few minutes of TMZ and that show is like a puddle in a parking lot - miles wide and 1/4 inch deep. It's so ripe for mockery.

stacy said...Hah! Love the title EAT SLAY LOVE. I'd get the book just based on the title alone.

Jesse Petersen said...Stacy, I mentioned EAT SLAY LOVE on my twitter (you can follow me @jessepet, BTW) and my editor loved it! It was kind of a joke, really! LOL But I like it.

Evil Editor said...It was funnier than I expected. I mean, zombies are intrinsically funny except when they're eating you, but the subtle humor of lines like:

"Amanda, I'm going to open the door, but if you try to eat us I'll kill you."

Sarah: "Our marriage counselor tried to eat us, so we bashed her head in."
Amanda: "Marriage counseling? Are you guys okay?"

Sarah: "He wanted to bite me so I had no choice but to kill him. I'm really sorry Mandy."
Amanda: "It's okay Sarah. I was going to break up with him anyway."

...was a bonus.

Jesse Petersen said...EE , thanks! I'm just glad other people have found it funny. I was sort of scared people wouldn't (I think humor is harder to write than something serious in some ways).

Robin S. said...Hi Jesse, I was in my neighborhood Borders a few days ago and there was a table with zombie stuff - of course with Halloween coming, it got center stage, but it also looks like you caught a good wave here. Congrats on that!

ril said...Yes, there's quite a zombie renaissance going on right now...

Evil Editor said...Just when you think the zombie genre has run its course it rises again.

Jesse Petersen said...I think zombies definitely have staying power. We "get" them as bad guys. I'm hoping that gets reflected in long-term sales and in the sales of FLIP and ESL.

sylvia said...Hello Jesse! I enjoyed the novel.

Jesse Petersen said...Thanks so much, sylvia!

sylvia said...EE has already quoted all my favourite lines!

Evil Editor said...I've saved you the trouble of typing them, Sylvia. Although many of the "tips" at the beginning of the chapters were also funny:

Build mutual friendships. Just be ready to end them when your friends start trying to eat you.

It's better to be wrong and alive than right and eating brains.

sylvia said...I thought the icons and tips were fun and also a great structural device.

Jesse Petersen said...EE, the marriage tips at the beginning of each chapter were SO fun! They carry on in the series, too. In FLIP it's all business advice and in ESL it's general self-help.

ril said...In this first book, David and Sarah aren't exactly the luckiest couple to be around. Do they manage to keep a few friends in the later books?

Jesse Petersen said...ril, Dave and Sarah are definitely hard on friends in the first book! LOL They do make some new ones in the second book (and the third) but you'll have to read them to see if their bad luck continues. I really like the secondary characters. They tend to surprise me!

Robin S. said...I LOVE the movies from back in the day - can't even remember the names of most - but the ones from the 50's and early 60's about swamp things and pod people and aliens and zombies and haunted houses. They're great to watch.

Jesse Petersen said...Robin, definitely! It's interesting to watch the older movies and through the newer ones and see the zombie film genre develop. There are so many good zombie films!

sylvia said...EAT SLAY LOVE sounds awesome. I'm intrigued as to how you knew you had a novel rather than just a scene or even short story?

Jesse Petersen said...sylvia, I really didn't know at first. But the more I wrote, the more I sort of realized that Dave and Sarah would have to follow your typical "zombie set up". Once I had that in my head, it was easy to see how the story would unfold naturally and could be a full novel. I am generally a plotter, but with MWZ I didn't plot much more than a scene or two ahead of myself. FLIP and ESL were far more plotted.

stacy said...I liked the underlying story of a couple that heals through the teamwork of trying to stay alive.

Jesse Petersen said...Stacy, the underlying question of "can Sarah and Dave work it out" was definitely the thing that kept me going, too. I think that's why I kill all their friends, actually. In the end, they have to make it together or not. And I loved watching their relationship get stronger through the next two books, too. Although that isn't to say there aren't challenges (mad scientist who looks like Luke Wilson, HELLO???).

fairyhedgehog said...I loved the premise that David and Sarah needed to slay zombies to save their marriage. And I loved the humour, and the pop references like Mythbusters testing the sheets-as-escape-rope theory. I couldn't remember what they'd found either. I normally avoid zombie books but the humour and the lightness of touch made this a very enjoyable read.

Jesse Petersen said...FHH, I loved being able to write pop culture references like that and let my inner geek out! In my other life as a historical writer, you can really do that. LOL My sister-in-law's bookclub read it this month and she said that she and her friend both thought that "I" came through more in this book and I think that's true. Which made it more fun than ever! And I'm so glad you liked the book despite the zombie thing. I hope it can appeal to people who are big zombie-philes and people who are only zombie-curious.

fairyhedgehog said...Oh, I love that! I'll tell everyone I'm zombie-curious!

Evil Editor said...I liked that the zombies were a major danger, partly through numbers, but also they seemed faster and harder to kill than the usual plodding zombies. It's a pleasant combination of comedy and death, sort of like the TV show Bones.

Jesse Petersen said...EE, I think that's the challenge of the zombie book/movie. Since they aren't a thinking danger, it's sometimes hard to make them feel continually scary. So I had my rules to the zombieverse and stuck to those. You see even scarier zombies in FLIP, too!

ril said...The story definitely had a movie feel to it. Has there been any interest in movie rights yet? Shaun of the Dead was pretty good and in a similar vein...

Jesse Petersen said...ril, we're working on movie rights, but no bites yet. It's a pretty long shot, but I'd certainly love to see it translated to screen in some way!

Dave F. said...I think I enjoyed it more because it didn't dig into science and deep, philosophical societal failures. I liked the lightness and fun. Of course, they did lose all their relatives, neighbors and friends. In the last chapters I was taking side bets on how many pages the next character would last. I won my bets with myself (which goes without saying).

Dave F. I think that zombies definitely have a place to deal with those deeper issues of science and social problems, but I just wanted to have FUN! LOL

fairyhedgehog said...Jesse, it sounds like you had a lot of fun writing the books, but were there times when you wanted to give up?

Jesse Petersen said...I think all writers face that issue at some point. With this book it was different because I wrote it for my own entertainment and then it went to auction within a couple of days of it going out. So it wasn't as much of a "Dark Time of the Soul" that I maybe went through before I was published. But the industry is hard. The sales of this book haven't been as good as I think everyone has hoped and I'll just say I was glad I was done with the first draft of the last book before this one came out because it does make you question yourself and your talent and ability to be successful. In the end, I think it's just figuring out if you love writing enough to put up with all the pain and the things you can't control. I'll just say I was glad I was done with the first draft of the last book before this one came out because it does make you question yourself and your talent and ability to be successful.

fairyhedgehog said...I'm surprised it's not a runaway success. We need to get the word out there with excellent reviews!

Jesse Petersen said...FHH, I totally would not turn down some buzz! I always appreciate people talking about the book on their blogs or posting reviews online to Goodreads, Amazon or Barnes and Noble. Recommend to friends, it makes a great Christmas gift... basically, pimp me and I'll love you forever.

fairyhedgehog said...I love pimping books I've enjoyed!

sylvia said...I think not reading your reviews until you've written the next thing makes a whole lot of sense.

ril said...They're a bit tardy releasing it internationally, too. I had to fly to the US for my copy.

fairyhedgehog said...ril, Wow, you really did put yourself out for this book chat!

ril said...Not only that, I read the whole book.

Jesse Petersen said...ril, Simon and Schuster is releasing the UK version but it is in February. I don't know why the releases are spaced the way they are, it seems odd to me. But I'm so glad you got it. You'll notice there is a slight color difference on the UK version cover, too. IT's red rather than pink (which was the original US cover before they switched to that awesomely vibrant pink). Oh and it looks like the UK FLIP will be in July 2011.

Evil Editor said...Christmas season will lead to massive sales as gifts for zombie lovers.

ril said...The trouble with zombie lovers is their bits fall off too easily...

fairyhedgehog said...@ril, as long as their bits fall off after they've bought the book.

sylvia said...I was impressed that Sarah works even though she's somewhat unsympathetic at the start. She comes across as much bitchier than Dave which surprised me but works in terms of blame. We don't see her as falling back in love with an asshole but instead trying to work out a good relationship with problems.

Robin S. said...Hey, I'm a lot bitchier than my husband is (just ask him!!) - and it works really well. I get to be the designated bad guy on stuff and he gets to be 'the nice one'. That's realism, baby!

Dave F. said...It's the old maxim you hear from all the marriage counselors -- better the imperfect husband you know than mister perfect eating your brains...

Jesse Petersen said...sylvia, Sarah as a bitch is something that I struggle with as a writer. I think she's real, which is cool. But I also want her to be sympathetic (I mean, if you want her to get eaten then it sort of defeats the purpose). It's a real balance between her being funny and snarky and being evil. LOL Hopefully I've hit it, but someone did call her a sociopath. So not everyone gets her.

ril said...They probably meant sociologist. I make that mistake all the time, too.

stacy said...I'd hardly call Sarah a sociopath. She's bitchy, maybe, but that's pretty harsh.

sylvia said...Sociopath? Good lord! I just thought it was interesting that Sarah was *clearly* the cause of some of the problems with the marriage. We feel that Dave is a good guy deep down, rather than some jerk who isn't pulling his weight when she's trying to do everything she can to save them. For me, that made it easier to cheer for them to work together.

Phoenix said...So true. We normally see the guy being the sociopath in relationship books written by women. Go figure. This was a refreshing take.

Evil Editor said...Killing off Mandy did kill off a major source of laughs. That took guts.

ril said...I think killing off the best friend is in the apocalyptic road trip code, isn't it?

stacy said...I was a little surprised at the killing of Mandy, since she was turning out to be a better ally than Sarah and Dave expected. I was expecting them to find out she was a member of MENSA or something, albeit a lazy one.

Evil Editor said...It would have been interesting to keep zombie Mandy alive. They could have put her in one of those Hannibal Lecter masks and pushed her around on a hand truck. And when she got hungry they could feed her evil religious zealots.

fairyhedgehog said...I thought that the cult was seriously creepy and well done. I like the way Sarah gradually realises that the dangers aren't just from the zombies. Oh, and I liked all the asides about "We didn't realise that then but we do now."

Robin S. said...Maybe YOU need to write a zombie novel, EE. The mask thing and the feeder.

Jesse Petersen said...re: Killing off Amanda. I struggled with that, but it is sort of the code of the zombie film/book. The hero and heroine have to face a more personal loss. Once they start to like Mandy, they lose her and it's back to just depending on each other to make it through. I thought that was important to their growth. But I do like the idea that secretly Amanda is a member of MENSA!

Evil Editor said...I assume the loss of Mandy is compensated for in the next book when they hire a ditzy receptionist for the zombie extermination company.

Jesse Petersen said...EE no receptionist in FLIP (though it's a good idea) but they do have a Steve Buschemi-esque contact, an 11-year-old Bart Simpson wannabe, some friends at the library and a mad scientist. It's like the screwed up version of Friends or something.

fairyhedgehog said...One thing that bugged me was with all the body fluids spraying around, could Sarah and David get infected in a cut they didn't know they had or something. I wasn't sure if that could happen and if so how they could prevent it.

Evil Editor said...Obviously, FH, it's the zombie venom from the bite that causes zombieficationism.

fairyhedgehog said...Thanks for clearing that up, EE.

Jesse Petersen said...FHH - I think at some point they do mention the idea that the fluids could kill them or zombie-fy them. I think that's pretty much realism, too, though. In this kind of infection you wouldn't have much control over it. You just try to avoid it.

Dave F. said...There are only two things that work in a zombie novel -- a) the zombies are relentless in seeking your death and b) the interpersonal relationship of the survivors. And that's true whether the living survive or not. The science is irrelevant. It can be anything. I just finished Justin Long's The Passage and although it is a vampire apocalypse, it shares the same themes. However, it is not light reading and as a result, the story is complex and detailed. Married with Zombies is a bright, funny romp through something that should be horrific but makes us laugh. The characters don't need to know why the disaster happened. They only need to survive it. Once civil authority returns, the fun ends because they go back to their mundane life. At least that's my take on zombies rules.

Jesse Petersen said...I think that's true, Dave. With the zombies you don't necessarily need to know the "why" just how to get out. OR figure out how along the way.

sylvia said...I did think that as a survival story, the "science" behind the zombie-fication didn't need clarifying but continuing on with further volumes, I'd normally expect to see the main characters finding out more (and thus the explanations coming through). Without offering spoilers, was this an issue coming from a historical/romance background rather than SF&F?

Jesse Petersen said...Sorry cat is trying to make love to my screen so I'm having cat technical difficulties. Okay, so sylvia you mentioned deepening the science as the series goes on. I think some questions you'll see answered but lots are not. Sarah and Dave end up in a pretty good wasteland in the next two books thanks to governmental bombings and rapid spread of the infection. There are rumors and they do bump into people with more info, but some things you just don't know. That has been an issue with some people who weren't fans of the first book, but I thought it was realistic in some ways. With something so big and so instantly devastating, you wouldn't have the answers right away, you know? And you might never get them. Someone mentioned that zombie stories are in some ways more about the survivors and I totally think that's true. It's how you react, not necessarily how you got there.

Robin S. said...Agree with that last part, Jesse. With any devastation - it matters what you're made of, how you handle things. knowing all about what happened is secondary unless it's important to help you survive.

fairyhedgehog said...I felt you'd given us enough hints to suspect that the zombie outbreak was probably due to scientists working on something biological (a cure? a weapon? who knows?) and it had escaped and was virulent. That actually seemed reasonable to me.

Robin S. said...Anyone know the genesis of the zombie in our human fear factor subconscious? It would be interesting to know.

Dave F. said...elements of Frankenstein might be an origin of zombies. The Mummy movies -- a dead guardian of the pharaoh's tomb. But in the late 40's and 50's science was frightening and people were afraid that science would end the world. Plus, what is the morality of a weapon? Would nuclear weapons and science destroy the human race?

Robin S. said...Dave, that makes sense - the fear and paranoia post WW2 - in the movies and the bad guys - a new breed, built on the back of the Victorian era of creepy bad guys.

Dave F. said...Robin, Romero's Night of the Living Dead was just another one of those stories until he did all those brand new cuts and fades, cast the hero as a black man and told the story over the end of the credits. It's the amount of social commentary he shoved into the movie and the way he told the story on the screen that prevented it from being just another 60's sci-fi.

fairyhedgehog said...I felt sympathy for Sarah having to earn a living while David plays video games all day. And once you get into a snarky mindset it's not always easy to get out of it again. Ahem. Or so I've been told.

stacy said...I did feel sympathy for Sarah in the beginning even though it took a while for me to actually like her.

Duane from Houston said...jesse, I notice in the book that everyone sarah and dave meets dies. Was that symbolism that they only have each other in the end or was it more that they are so self absorbed that they can't seem to sustain relationships with others long enough to keep them alive?

Jesse Petersen said...LOL, I hadn't thought about the second option. I think I was thinking more along the lines of the first. In the end, they only have each other, so can they work it out or not. But they are pretty self-absorbed. Not exactly good friend material, either of them.

Phoenix said...I think because zombies are such a niche audience, it's hard to convince other folk that they'll like it if they try it. How are you marketing to those "other" audiences.

fairyhedgehog said...sylvia, I agree. It felt far more balanced than most books about a relationship gone wrong.

stacy said...Yes, they could have definitely used Mandy during the cult scenes, but they handled that all right.

stacy said.... . . not exactly good friend material, either of them. Does that change at all in the next two books?

Jesse Petersen said...Stacy, as far as Dave and Sarah changing and becoming better friends, yes. I think they are better in FLIP (I kill far less people who they're close to in that book, some of them even GASP survive!!). The whole "Living With the Dead" series shows them changing as a couple and as people. Like Dave gets more proactive, Sarah gets more understanding. All while still snarking it up, of course.

Evil Editor said...Is your depiction of zombies based on your husband in the morning?

Jesse Petersen said...LOL, he is a little grumpy in the morning. People keep asking if he's Dave. I think I'M Dave. Hanging out, doing what I want to do (though in my case writing) and he's off slogging through some job. Although he's never gone all Sarah snarky on me (I guess that's my Sarah part, I'm snarky). He's very supportive.stacy said...This really put me in mind of SHAUN OF THE DEAD, a film I really enjoyed.

Jesse Petersen said...Oh I wanted to remind people, Orbit has the first chapter of FLIP up on the http://www.jessepetersen.net site. And I'm going to be putting another sneak peek in my blog on the site Monday.

Dave F. said...This will be one of my easier Christmas gifts for that "hard to get" relative.

sylvia said...I liked the fact that it was a fast and humorous read - not many apocalypse stories manage that.

Duane said...I read the first chapter of Flip and I am confused just a bit. Has the outbreak been contained and they are being hired to clean it up..or is it that people wanna get into the supermarket but there are zombies and they dont want to fight them..so they hire Sarah and Dave?

Jesse Petersen said...Duane, the outbreak has definitely not been contained! They are out in the wastelands (in this case, they got as far as Phoenix). When people spot zombies they hire Sarah and Dave to clear them out (lots of people just haven't figured out how to do it or don't want to do it anymore). In trade for goods. No more supermarkets and that sort of thing. Survivor camps.

Jesse Petersen said...You're all very quiet now... LOL

Evil Editor said...We're quietly basking in the afterglow of the chat. Happens every month.

Robin S. said...That's true. We bask at the end. It's fun to get together!

sylvia said...The discussions are a lot more vocal when people disliked the book. >:D

fairyhedgehog said...I'm glad that we all liked it! That doesn't often happen.

stacy said...Jesse, did you find it necessary to finish the second book in order to know what to hint at in the first (as a continuation of the story, that is)?

Jesse Petersen said...Actually Orbit had already bought the first book and they asked what the second book was going to be about and I said, "Second book?" So I'd already mentioned the zombie extermination in the first so that's what we went with. I did go back and add a couple hints in the first that they really meant it.

Jesse Petersen said...Thanks everyone for coming and for allowing me to invade your chat! I'm so glad so many of you liked the book! And thanks for offering this as an auction item, EE!! My website is http://www.jessepeteren.net, I'm on Facebook (fan page) and also @jessepet on Twitter! I always love to hear from readers, so feel free to hit me up on any or all of those places.

sylvia said...Thanks for coming, Jesse. It's always interesting to hear about the making of a book!

Evil Editor said...Perhaps we should call it a chat. It was a pleasure having you, Jesse. This was the most favorably received book we've read via the auction.

Jesse Petersen said...Woohoo! Thanks EE! And thanks again everyone! Hope you enjoy FLIP THIS ZOMBIE and EAT SLAY LOVE just as much!
Bye everyone!

Book Chat 30 Tyler Knox/Kockroach

2010-09-03T08:18:00.001-07:00

Robin S. said...I'm here. Kockroach in hand.

Dave F. said...Once again I assemble my bug spray, itch powder and fly swatter. The only worse thing than a bug crawling on me is poison ivy. and after all that, Hi y'all. Hope you had your coffee this morning.

sylvia said...From a review: "Either Tyler Knox has grand ambitions for his first novel or he’s trying to make a silly joke."

Evil Editor said...If that was a bad review, it was one of very few.

sylvia said...The review is more petulant than bad, I'd say:

WhatzUp - Leisure Time Weekly for Northeast Indiana
"Whatever the reason, Kockroach is based on a premise that, if it’s a joke, it has an immediately obvious punchline which evokes laughter that dies out pretty quickly. In Kockroach an insect wakes one morning to find that he has been mysteriously tranformed into a human. This is, of course, an inversion of Franz Kafka’s The Metamorphosis, in which a man wakes one morning to discover that he has been changed into an insect. I suspect that Knox wanted his book to be half-serious – playful with a touch of wisdom – and that it is, although it has little to do with Kafka’s book beyond the opening scene, Knox’s novel makes space for itself and becomes, if one can overlook some serious flaws, a lighthearted entertainment."

Evil Editor said...Leisure Time Weekly for Northeast Indiana? Had to dig awfully deep to find a bad review, eh? The reviews excerpted at Kockroach.com are from better-known sources. The author's site also has a section of discussion questions, which might be better read before reading the book, although the book might be less fun if you're actually thinking about it.

sylvia said...I live in fear of getting a novel published and being asked to create sensible discussion questions.

Robin S. said...He has discussion questions? Really? He has his own book club stuff ready? Hmmm. Sounds like a good idea. I never thought to check - I just read the stuff in the back of the book. It seems this novel and the ancillary helpfulness re the reader's invitation to partake in discussion - seems a little contrived. But maybe that's what's expected to work now? I didn't need to know he liked Metamorphosis as a kid - figured that out from the reversal of metamorphosizing.

Dave F. said...I liked the book, sort of. It's not going to be one of my all time favorites but I did enjoy it.

sylvia said...I'm not a big noir fan and the premise was a bit odd, so I expected to not like it and possibly not finish it. But in the end, I read it very quickly. It's interesting and fun with some interesting intellectual questions. I love how the cockroach morality plays out throughout the storyline.

Dave F. said...KOCKROACH is commentary on businessmen and politicians. It seems to say that criminals have more morals than roaches and businessmen and politicians are less moral than the lowly, squishy roach.

DCP said...I thought it was really good ut then kind of dropped off after the whole abogados showdown....

Evil Editor said...I thought it worked well as a story and moralistically, with the cockroach's ways helping him rise to the top of the crime world and then the top of the business world.

Robin S. said...I can absolutley see where the cockroach behavior pattern works well in the fight to the top of supposedly high-fallutin places.

Dave F. said...I kinda thought it was the modern version of Orwell's Animal Farm making fun of modern society and its morals. The one thing I felt cheated on is the allusion to Richard Nixon waving the "V" sign. Now that was low and cheap humor.

sylvia said...That's how I took it - the roach morals were basic and focused on survival. His actions were nevertheless better than the others, or at least, less harmful.

Robin S. said...I 'get' the point and the premise and the underyling moral of the story, as it were. It's well-written, but I feel I've been spoon fed information and 'what I should take away' rather than simply being handed a narrative to read and deriving meaning on my own. I don't love that attitude in writing. Also, the review quote on the back of my copy irritated me - 'portrait of the cockroach as a young human' - as though anyone now living could step into Joyce's shoes. Are you fucking kidding me?

Evil Editor said...I'm sure the author didn't choose which quote to put on the back cover.

sylvia said...Problems I had: I didn't really understand why Kockroach took the first prostitute to abandon her to the docks. I mean, I understand that she was drugged out but she wasn't really doing any harm and it didn't seem in character for him. What did he care if she just hung around?

Dave F. said...Sylvia, Wasn't it that roaches are cannibals and also have no fathering skills whatsoever. I don't think KOCKROACH is capable of love in the way we think of it -- he understands trophy wives as a means to power but he doesn't understand a white picket fence and two kids.

stacy said...He sounds kind of like a sociopath.

Evil Editor said...Survival and greed are the only motivations of a cockroach. Kockroach survives and rises. His survival of the explosion reminds me of how they say when nuclear war destroys the planet, only cockroaches will survive.

sylvia said...The other characters definitely see him as a sociopath. But we get the cockroach morals/logic explained to us and thus his actions end up making a lot of sense. He gets that "green paper" makes a big impression and allows people to get what they want, so with his cockroachy acquisitive nature, he focuses on getting as much as he can, so that he can take care of himself and all the cockroaches in the world.

Robin S. said...I'd say he IS a sociopath, Stace - I think you're on the money. But I think part of the point is what (forgive the repetitive word here) Dave pointed out - I also have had bosses who are pointlessly cruel or just personalities-in-absentia, and taking everyone along on their suck-ass gravy train. I think that's a realistic way of looking at SO many people, especially those who have, by their roles, have the capacity in some form or fashion to control others.

sylvia said...I agree and that was a Celia problem. But the initial girl didn't want more than she had and I just didn't really grasp why he forced her to work the docks. It seemed vindictive without cause. A totally minor point but it bugged me because I didn't get it.

Evil Editor said...He knew she would never go home and get straight like she kept saying. At least he didn't have her killed like the wife of the young handsome mobster on the Sopranos. That's how the mob handles it when you reflect badly on them or you can't be trusted not to screw them.

Dave F. said...Oh Sylvia, I've worked for a few butt-kissing weasels whose sole philosophy was exemplified by "It seemed vindictive without cause." I kept comparing this guy to old bosses.

sylvia said...Dave: businessmen, yes. I didn't see it as in character for a cockroach though.

DTP said...I started off liking Kockroach, and not liking mite, but then that reversed for me, and Kockroach seemed to become more a villain...

sylvia said...My sympathies shifted around a few times. I thought they did a good job of no good guys/bad guys. Though I was disappointed in Celia in the end.

Dave F. said...One thing I really would like to know -- in the Buddhist sense of reincarnation and karma -- what did this guy do to be reincarnated into a roach's body and what did the roach do that made it possible for "it" to be incarnated into a human body? Or is this like JOB and a bet between God and Satan?

sylvia said...Regarding Karma, I did really hope throughout that there would be some sort of explanation as to why he morphed into a human. But I wasn't really surprised when there wasn't (and I suspect it would have been difficult to come up with any sort of reasoning that didn't sound silly)

Evil Editor said...Is there an explanation of why the man becomes a bug in Kafka's book?

Dave F. said...Kafka didn't explain the act that got his character to "become an odious insect" but we can well imagine what tedious and inconsequential act could get a paranoid like Kafka to feel ostracized from society.

Robin S. said...Kafka's father was cold and emotionally cruel to him -I remember reading that in a biography note - and in a note where excerpts from his letters to his father explained so much about his outlook on life, and re himself. As for bug-human stuff, I kept thinking about Dave Matthews' excellent song, Ants Marching. I think about that a lot, driving into DC 5 days a week. It applies.

sylvia said...In Kafka, I think the point was that it was a bad man. In Kockroach, I didn't get the impression that Kockroach was a particularly good or evil bug or that it would even matter. So you couldn't really parallel the causes of the metamorphasis.

sylvia said...I found the romance a bit more difficult to grasp but I still liked it. And loved the betrayal / fire scene / escape sequence.

DCP said...Did everyone that was part of his 'family' in the end have some abnormality...liek celiea with the leg, the lawyer with the stutter, the boxer with a scarred face, and was his new wife blind?? This leave out mite.

sylvia said...I didn't actually notice that but you are right!

DCP said...I wasn't sure about the blind thing, and maybe mite was super short, and then maybe that is why he rejected sylvie...?

Dave F. said...Now let me play devil's advocate...what if this really is a joke on the establishment writer? The reversal of a much "beloved" short story that teachers and professors inflict on all students. Did Knox spoof the intellectuals and write a biting satire making powerful men look like insects?

stacy said...But I thought those men already looked like insects to intellectuals. Steve Jobs notwithstanding. ; )

Robin S. said...By the way, there were some scenes, or reflections, that I truly enjoyed - page 340 in my copy - for instance - the mother-daughter death truths were spot on and well done. And on page 170 - feer and greed as cockroach toggle feelings - and how fear also drives so much in humans. So very true - even when we rationalize away the fears and come up with something more acceptable to ourselves. In reality, I could see a morphed bug doing well in our society - free of any Judeo-Christian guilt traps - they could survive thrive and conquer. Hence the tale, I suppose.

Dave F. said...BTW - did anyone laugh out loud at parts of this book or am I the odd person out again?

Evil Editor said...I don't know if I laughed out loud, but I thought the mix of humor and noir was well done. I'll probably read this again some day.

Robin S. said...What parts made you laugh, Dave - or was it just in general? I'm trying to remember if I grinned while reading...

Dave F. said...What made me laugh? The comparisons to culture-- the send up of THE GODFATHER where a single lone survivor crawls out of the betrayal to take revenge from teh sidelines, very Godfatherish. The Nixon send up. Mite's return after betrayal, like the Prodigal Son in the Bible. The two wives (sort of wives) and lack of love in sex.

sylvia said...The discussion questions ask why the time period/location was chosen (Answer: I have no idea!)

stacy said...I wonder if Knox chose that time period because of its outward shell of stability, and yet it was such a paranoid time.

Evil Editor said...He needed a time of corruption and crime, and the McCarthy hearings were going on. I tend to think of noir as forties rather than fifties, so I was surprised to find it was the 50's.

Dave F. said...I'll ask the question that Knox asks: Does this, the Great American Dream of the Rugged Individualist clawing his way to the top of the economic heap through the glories of capitalism, compare to a heap of roaches in a sewer? Could this become a paradigm shift in the way we look at business?

Evil Editor said...That IS the way we look at business nowadays.

sylvia said...This book surprised me because I thought it was going to be a struggle to get through and it really wasn't. I liked the way Kockroach reacted when confronted with Mite's moral views, with a simple reaction of "Why would you think that way?" The book was very moralistic but not in a patronising/condenscending way. It was not kind to women but then that fit with the setting and the bugginess and the type of character.

Robin S. said...Sorry if my comments are disjointed -but I'm looking at the pages I marked. I'd forgotten how much I liked pages 78-79. His contemplation of mating rituals. I liked the honesty of it - again, the thing with humans is, they mask raw want and need with rationale and quasi-emotion seems to me to be the point. I did like that refreshing way of looking at this.

Evil Editor said...Refreshing and more readable to have those ideas coming from a cockroach than from a psychologist.

Dave F. said...I enjoyed the book. It entertained me and I think it will entertain some others who depend on me to spend my hard earned money and feed them second-hand books. I think it's very satiric in a wicked, literate way and also, it's a send up of literary novels themselves. It's a tweak on the nose to intellectuals. And I think he did a good job of it.

Robin S. said...I don't see this as lit fic, though. Not that I'm against the genre-as-lit-fic thing at all. I've read several mysteries that were astounding in their right portrayal of the human condition. I just don't think this one qualifies. Or maybe I just hate bugs. There's that. I agree that what passes for literary fiction now is often navel-gazing grandiosity-claiming silly stuff. So if he can send THAT up and outta here, I'm all for that.

Evil Editor said...Filled with observations about human relationships . . . . a study of human society from a unique perspective.--LIBRARY JOURNAL That makes it sound like litfic, but the style is pure genre. It's a combo.

Evil Editor said...Is it totally inconceivable that some of our politicians and businessmen were once cockroaches?

Robin S. said...not inconceivable at all.

Dave F. said...I don't know about insects, EE, but I do believe that anus is the operative word. Especially for talk radio hosts and former governors.

stacy said...Jesus. I'm going to be watching the news in a whole new way.

Book Chat 29: Suzanne Collins/The Hunger Games

2010-07-31T16:02:00.000-07:00

Evil Editor said...Anyone besides me read the second book?

Dave F. said...I didn't read the second book. I'm not anxious to go back to that dystopia.

sylvia said...(I've not read the second book)

fairyhedgehog said...I'm reading book two now. I was very cross at all the loose ends that were left at the end of book one. I hate series books that are more like a serial. Mind you, it didn't stop me borrowing the next book!

Robin S. said...I've only read this first one, but I'm with FH - even in a series, I need closure, book to book.

Evil Editor said...Isn't there closure? The Hunger games end. We know who won. You can't have closure in the society changing, or there'd be no series.

sylvia said...There was closure, true. But it seemed like another book that ended on a note of "And to find out how this works out, you need to get the next one" and I wasn't expecting that. Leviathan did the same, even more blatantly, so perhaps I'm just touchy. I felt it looked like a standalone. Catching Fire (is that right? I've not got it) isn't a sequel, it's Part 2 of the same story.

fairyhedgehog said....Exactly!

Evil Editor said...It doesn't pick up where book 1 left off, time has passed.

fairyhedgehog said....It felt much more unfinished to me than most books do that are a series. You could have had a temporary solution to the Peeta/Gale problem. At the end of book one I was mostly annoyed that the Peeta/Gale thing was up in the air, rather than upset at the darkness of the world. Kat was clearly in love with Gale but not admitting it to herself. I'd have liked a happy reunion with him - but of course that wouldn't fit in with all the events of book 2.

Dave F. said...I was sorry the Peeta/Gale thing wasn't resolved but this story needed some sort of romantic element. Katniss can't be a celibate nun with aspirations of being Joan of Arc. We'd all hate that. She's got a taste of girly-hood and boys will follow.

Rachel said...If it's Peeta vs. Gale, I vote Peeta. He's been onscreen a lot longer and gone through more with/for Kat. My guess is that, in the third book, one of them dies. That'll solve it easily enough.

fairyhedgehog said...I think Rachel is right. Killing off a character is an easy way out in this book. I reckon she'll end up with Gale though because he's her true love (sic).

Evil Editor said...I agree, she should go for Peeta. But women never know what's good for them.

Robin S. said...And HA Sparky - FH and I are here with you, aren't we?!

fairyhedgehog said...I think Katniss has to survive book two, and I'm guessing she's alive at the end of book three.

Dave F. said...According to the public blurb on AMAZON, Book 3 is called Mockingjay. With a title like that, Katniss' personal pin, she better survive.

Robin S. said...Anyway, the world of this book - no way could I take this for 3 books. I'd need to go on anti-depressants.

sylvia said...I enjoyed it though - I think that's what makes it frustrating :D

fairyhedgehog said...I'm enjoying the second one less. It's just as fast a read but I'm finding it more depressing. I think the excitement overcame the depression in the first book.

Dave F. said...And it is ghoulish: "The arenas are historic sites, preserved after the game. Popular destinations for Capitol residents to visit, to vacation. Go for a month, rewatch the games, tour the catacombs, visit the sites where the deaths too place. You can even take part in reenactments. They say the food is excellent." At least when Schwarzenegger did THE RUNNING MAN they paid homage to the dead contestants in the movie. This story turns the arenas into vacation play spots. It's not like Gettysburg (about 150 miles away from where I live) where even when the re-enacters do their thing, it is a memorial to a just cause. The arenas in The Hunger Game memorialize an invented competition for keeping the population mollified.

sylvia said...I think that was part of the point - it's a form of gladiators and people really are ghoulish when given permission. Add to that the competitive aspects of the districts and I saw this as pretty believable.

fairyhedgehog said...Dave, I think we're meant to be horrified. The Capitol treats it like Big Brother but to the contestants it's genuinely life or death - and mostly death.

Robin S. said...Also it pisses me off, seeing people in a captured lifestyle and having to fight to the death. Makes me want to lead an insurrection to wipe those assholes who planned this thing - OUT. Capitol, schmapitol.

sylvia said...The entire scenario was depressing but I don't know, that aspect didn't bother me so much. I thought the world-building she did was really clever. I never felt like someone was sitting me down and explaining how things worked, it was all done with context.

Dave F. said...It's well written. Collins is a good writer and the "world" is well-built and fleshed-out. I just think it's too dark. I would have trouble reading this with a kid and having to explain the occurrences. Perhaps that's just me. I suspect so. I wanted this to be an adult story and I think that what book 2 and 3 do is to take the story into the political realm and reveal the corruption and rot in the society that is only hinted at in the first book.

fairyhedgehog said...Like you, Dave, I wouldn't want to read this with a kid. I enjoyed it though and I'm getting the sense that you hated it?

Evil Editor said...Book 2 starts out depressing, and the twist revealed in chapter 12 makes it interesting and by the end hopefulness has crept in.

Robin S. said...You're right, Sylvia. The world-building really was well done. I believed it enough that it pissed me off. People really are ghoulish and disgusting when they are let loose to show it. I totally believed in the monstrous things I read in The Road, because of that. The Road is one of my top 10 all-time favorite novels. Resonant doesn't even begin to explain how I feel about it. This one - not really in the same league. A passing fancy kind of thing.

sylvia said...The Road is an example of a book that is too depressing for me to cope with reading a second book set in the same world. I finished it in the middle of the night and just cried. I'm looking forward to reading book 2 of this series though, I just felt a little bit tricked at the end of book 1.

Robin S. said...Agree. The Road had to be a standalone. I couldn't have 'gone there' again! This novel really isn't my scene, but I read it because I'm working on expanding my reading horizions with EE's Chats. I see no POINT, no end game to it, nothing that stays with me, other than 'ewww', to be honest. I think that means that a little more emotional/directional 'closure', for lack of a better word here, would have helped.

Dave F. said...Although I have watched the first of each at the insistence of friends, I will not watch the sequels of the SAW or HOSTEL movies. Nor do I seek out those blood-splatterific stories that so populate the "B" movie rolls. I usually don't/won't read much vampire and wolf because of the blood. I don't watch the Law and Order: Special Crimes Unit because it's all slasher crime or worse, child abuse. I'm a little weird that way. I'm not a fan of bloody films. I do like a good, solid tear-jerking family movie in the old sense of great story and good dialogue, etc... All three books might do that but at this point, I've got three other novels started and they are holding my interest. I don't want to invest time in this sad, sad, world. And that's just me.

fairyhedgehog said...It didn't feel like a kid's story to me, despite the young protagonists and the ease of reading. It felt like an adult's book, simply written.

sylvia said...My son read this at 14 (I think? certainly it was a while ago) and read book 2 this year. He didn't seem too traumatised but I think the combination of that and Doctorow's "Big Brother" seeded his current interest in dystopian fiction.

fairyhedgehog said...My kids are grown up so I was only thinking of my own enjoyment as I read it.

Evil Editor said...There's a more adult version of this story (that Collins, it has been suggested, may have borrowed from) called Battle Royale. By a Japanese author, been made into a film.

Rachel said...movie: FYI, the movie is due out 2011. Enough people were interested that Suzanne Collins was able to attach herself to the deal, and she's adapting the script. Apparently she's done some TV work before, which should help. One of the issues, I've heard (besides who's playing Kat), is making sure that the big screen doesn't follow the Hunger Games in the way the media in the book does. They've got to translate the distaste for that sensationalism into a movie that, while in some ways is sensational for that reason, does not condone it. Anyway, I'm planning on memorizing its release date and seeing in theaters ASAP. The only other movies I've done that for are Narnia and Despicable Me.

sylvia said...To be honest, while reading it I thought - this is clearly going to get filmed. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that it was written with a screenplay in mind.

sylvia said...Ah hah: Battle Royale (Gollancz S.F.): Amazon.co.uk: Koushun Takami: Books although it does have one review saying the translation is awful :(

Rachel said...The first time I read this, I kind of expected what would happen to Rue, but it didn't really diminish the story. I figured that, if Kat's the good guy, she's got to get through killing people as innocently as possible. She can't kill in cold blood and still be our hero, so that left accident (Foxface), defence (Glimmer and the girl from 4), mercy (Cato), and justified/revenge (the boy from 1). Rue was different, though. For Kat to survive the Games, Rue had to die. Basically, that's the only way it could happen without hurting Kat in the reader's eyes.

fairyhedgehog said...Yes, Rue's death was inevitable. I still found it touching, though.
And it was clever that she got Kat out of killing Peeta altogether.

fairyhedgehog said...I don't want to give out spoilers, but I think that the second book is hinting that more major changes might occur in this world. I hope I'm reading it right. (I'm on chapter 18). EE you've probably got more idea as you've finished book 2.

Evil Editor said...Yes, FH, if at the end of book 1 you have no inkling that the districts are moving toward rebellion, that all they need is some figurehead leader to get behind, then I can see how this book would seem to be just a story set in a bleak and hopeless world. I'm hanging in there.

Robin S. said...A move toward rebellion, even a thought toward a move toward rebellion, in this one, would've made it worth the read for me. At the end of reading this one, I just felt hopeless and sad. And, as Sylvia mentioned, I felt like t was a screenplay - a fleshed-out screenplay.

Dave F. said...There are hints at rebels in the first book. I'm not sure if it is strong enough. I struggle with that when I write, How much twist can you provide with an ending before you anger the reader? How much do you foreshadow the final act.

Dave F. said...I said in another comment thread that I could handle "THE EMERALD FOREST" which has "breasts" in it (lots of breasts) and Bruce Willis' DIE HARD (vulgar language) when my nephews and nieces were teens. I don't have a good reference for this story in my head. It's like the original Grimm's Fairy tales. Years ago I read Rotkapchen (sorry, I can't add the umlauts) in the original German and it's quite bloody. Lots of the original fairy tales are scares -- Hansel and Gretel is a tale of abandonment. Maybe I one needs a different frame of reference when the teen says "What's with this world?" than I have.

sylvia said...Ah, that's an interesting point, Dave. I grew up on the original Grimm's versions, where stepmothers danced in iron shoes on hot coals until they died. My mother likes to tell the story that I read all these without wincing (I think most children have a strong sense of "right and wrong" and enjoy seeing the bad guys get punished, it's only when you shift to shades of grey that they get uncomfortable) but then screamed and cried when she took me to see Disney's Snow White. She had to take me outside to calm down from the forest scene.

Rachel said...I loved the descriptions of Kat's outfits. I'd wear them--though I'd join Kat in being afraid my hair would catch on fire. I liked how descriptions of food played into Kat's personality. Hunger and survival are so integral to her identity that it'd be out of character for her not to notice every detail of what she eats. The results make me hungry.

fairyhedgehog said...It's interesting what Collins chooses to describe and what she doesn't. I don't remember much description of the woods, or the home, but masses about the clothes and the food. Which I was shallow enough to enjoy!

Robin S. said...As Rachel mentioned, FH, the food was integral - so not shallow, but spot on, girl.

fairyhedgehog said...OK, food description not shallow! Good point Robin and Sylvia. Is the clothes description shallow? I enjoyed it and the clothes were very extreme. I liked the way they were so high-tech.

Dave F. said...Collins focuses the story on particular elements -- food, clothing, the hunting elements in the game. She doesn't wander around the landscape. That works in this story. The high tech stuff of the big city serves to highlight the oppression of the districts. Why can't the districts share in the bounty? That's the liberal democrat in me creeping out and waving HI!

sylvia said...I thought it was clear that rebellion was in the air but not ready to come to fruition. I agree with Rachel that the food descriptions were really telling of Kat's viewpoint. Much more effective than telling us that she was used to going hungry. The gadgetry was interesting but almost distracting. I didn't mind it but the story could have been futuristic without quite so much. On the other hand, it's fun to imagine what things will be like.

Evil Editor said...Isn't it about time all the countries of the world settled their disputes with Hunger Games instead of wars?

fairyhedgehog said...So who's going to volunteer to fight to the death? And what do the winners get?

Evil Editor said...Volunteers would be too easy to find. We need to have a reaping.

fairyhedgehog said...Truly, you are an Evil Editor!

Robin S. said...With all of the dumbass reality shows on TV now, and the fascination with people who aren't actually accomplishing anything, I can see where this would be a natural extension of where we'd be if there were a natural disaster of wide-reaching proportions. There's an interesting book- Full Circle - How the Classical World Came Back to Us - that talks about how we are not different from the Romans, etc., except for our technology. And they were certainly a bloodthirsty lot. And in the end, they went for bullshit entertainment as well. Something to think about...Maybe I should move to somewhere very remote.

sylvia said...I definitely took it to be a direct commentary on the modern world, especially reality shows but also the contrast between rich and poor, gossip magazines vs. starving children.

Rachel said...I was a bit confused on the layout of Panem. What I've gathered: the Capital is in the Rockies, leaning toward the west coast; 12 is/was Appalachia; 11 is/was the southern US; and 13 is/was Washington DC. What confuses me is their size. District 12 seems to be small enough that it's one town and the surrounding area and mines, plus the off-limit forest outside the fence. Everything's within walking distance. The Appalachians are a lot bigger than that at the moment, and this small place is providing coal for the nation? I guess what I'm saying is that I see two options: Panem consists of fenced-in districts with lots of empty space between them, or districts border very directly on each other. The first seems more likely, since every district has a town square where everybody has to assemble for the reaping, all within walking distance. That, and there seems to be enough wilderness between places for the Hunger Games to have a new, large arena every time. I could be weird on my economics, but I wonder how places that small can support such a gaudy and technological capital.

fairyhedgehog said...Not being in the US, the geography passed me by completely as well.

sylvia said...I presumed that the districts were separated by wasteland, I think the train journey and the reference to locations for the Hunger Game are what made me visualise it that way. I have to admit, I didn't try to map the geography onto the US.

Evil Editor said...Tech-wise, I found it hard to buy how there seemed to be enough cameras to record everything that happened in the arena. Were the contestants wearing cameras and microphones?

fairyhedgehog said...I was in a "a sufficiently advanced technology appears to be magic" mode, so the logistics of the technology didn't worry me.

Robin S. said...I never worry either, about the tech aspects - tech is magic to me now, so hey, future tech is magic, too.

fairyhedgehog said... *laughs*

Evil Editor said...I don't remember if Haymitch was a major character in book 1, but he is a cool character, at least in book 2.

Dave F. said...Katniss doesn't like Haymitch in book one. She thinks he;s a drunk. I think he's a drunk because he takes care of a kid who dies every year and is trying to assuage his conscience. But we don't see much of him because Katniss doesn't want him around. It's the POV that Collins holds so tight.

sylvia said...Haymitch: "I think he's a drunk because he takes care of a kid who dies every year and is trying to assuage his conscience." That was completely my take on him and I thought it was interesting how that came across despite the fact that Kat doesn't see it that way.

fairyhedgehog said...sylvia, yes Collins is very good at giving a wider picture, while keeping the point of view tight. I expected to hate this, for all the reasons Dave has given, and I'm not sure why I didn't. I think I just got too caught up in it.

Dave F. said...fairyhedgehog, My notes (Yes, I take notes as I read a book. I'm that anal retentive.) are definitely harsher than my statements in the discussion. I did like and enjoy the book.

Evil Editor said...Wouldn't it have made for better TV to choose adults instead of kids for the games?

sylvia said...No, adults would give up too easily. And YA sells better. :D

Robin S. said...I'd have gone for this more if adults were in the game. But then younger readers couldn't have identified with the characters, and it wouldn't have sold as well, I'm guessing.

fairyhedgehog said...So, EE, I'm getting a bit depressed by book two despite enjoying the first one. Is it worth reading to the end?

Evil Editor said...I think if the Hunger Games themselves don't interest you, maybe the series isn't for you. It's sort of like reading a great baseball book, but having no interest in baseball. Once the game starts, you tune out. I'm expecting the series to have a happy ending.

fairyhedgehog said...I'm hoping for a happy ending too. I'll feel desperately cheated if there isn't one.

Sarah Laurenson said...Hey all, Sorry, but I overslept. And I'm rushing off now. But I had to pop in because this was one of those rare books that I could not put down once I started reading it. 3:45am - I finally turned off the light, but only because I had reached the end. I'll be back later to read all the comments.

Book Chat 28 Stieg Larrson/ The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo

2010-07-23T11:10:00.000-07:00

Dave F. said...The book is well represented in the press. It seems to be "THE" popular book. I have the second but I haven't read it yet. I just didn't get the time to plow through it yet. I sort of liked the first.

Robin S. said...I've noticed everyone reading this book, and gifts of this book being given to people at the office, etc. It went viral. Would love to know how to get a toehold on that process. Do you have to die after writing a novel to do that?

Evil Editor said...I'm not sure why it's so popular. I liked it enough to read the second one, but does it have a special quality other good mysteries don't have?

Dave F. said...It has all the elements of a good mystery: a wronged hero (At least we are told he is wronged for slandering a corporate head), a quirky heroine with computer skills, and lots of bizarre sex.

Evil Editor said...Everyone on the island was a possible suspect and there were forty or fifty people there. I didn't feel I was getting to know any of them well enough to care whodunnit.

Robin S. said...Agree with EE. This novel is well-written, and the 'conversations' in it are well done, don't feel stilted, etc. BUT - P D James kicks this guy's butt. I think it's down to the viral thing. And a good title. And him being dead. It does feel distanced on the people. I wondered if that was simply cultural.

Dave F. said...It's a fairly complex book. The opening chapter of the pressed flower picture is satisfied along with the second plot of the libel conviction. I thought there would be more connection between Vanger Inc and Wennerstrom from years back. The connection was tenous to vaporous. I found it interesting that the original title in Swedish meant "Men who hate women" and that makes me wonder if some of the extreme misogyny meant the book was more a screed on misogyny than murder mystery. It might be that the mystery was just a vehicle and the secondary plot. Let's hold a seance and ask the author. Anyone got a Swedish Ouija board?

Robin S. said...Dave, that's really interesting on the title. I had no idea -but it fits.

Evil Editor said...As some of us haven't read The Girl Who Played with Fire, I won't provide any spoilers. But I will say that while Blomqvist was the main main character of Tattoo, Salander is the main main character of Fire. And she's a more interesting character. I liked Fire a lot more. It's also more thriller than mystery, while tattoo is more mystery than thriller, though they both have strong elements of both.

Dave F. said...No one has to look at any of this. I'm just posting it for people to read after the discussion. The Internet is filled with stuff about "The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo" and the other three novels. Yes, there are two definite books and the fourth is possible. The fourth novel was 3/4's finished when Stieg Larssen died and someone who might be involved with the author and his notes and outline and the the court fights about Larssen's estate might be finishing it.

Steig Larsson Unpublished Work Discovered After Death
By MALIN RISING

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/08/steig-larsson-unpublished_n_604290.html

There's a New York Time's article:
A Scandinavian Hit Sets Publishers Seeking More
By JULIE BOSMAN, June 15, 2010
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/16/books/16noir.html?ref=books

There is an amazingly funny satire in The New Yorker:
The Girl Who Fixed the Umlaut
by NORA EPHRON in The New Yorker Magazine, July 5, 2010
http://www.newyorker.com/humor/2010/07/05/100705sh_shouts_ephron

There's a tour in Stockholm of the non-existent locations that might have been in the novel:
Stockholm tour for 'Dragon Tattoo' fans: Readers of late Stieg Larsson get lost looking for quaint town of Hedestad
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38205073/ns/travel-destination_travel/

And last on my list is the Swedish Movie Adaptation of the novel, which is long at 2 hr 30 minutes and has English subtitles. And please note that several reviews are negative because of the explicit sex and murder scenes.
Blu Ray: http://www.amazon.com/Girl-Dragon-Tattoo-Blu-ray/dp/B003T6LIBM/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1279425737&sr=8-2
DVD: http://www.amazon.com/Girl-Dragon-Tattoo-Michael-Nyqvist/dp/B003FBNJ4U/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1279425737&sr=8-1

Evil Editor said...Explicit sex? Where do I get a copy?

Robin S. said...Cool for the article links - thanks, Dave. And, EE, you've had some damn good sex scenes done on this blog, as I recall...

Evil Editor said...The street signs in Sweden must be about six feet wide to hold some of those street names.

Dave F. said...Hedestad doesn't exist. So the streets might not exist either.

Evil Editor said...Book 2 has long street names too, and it's set in Stockholm.

Dave F. said...That's a big dump but most of it is background and ephemera...I think that success might be described as having NORA EPHRON write a parody of your book. AS for "dragon tattoo" I think the two stories aren't as well entwined as they might have been and that's what leaves us looking for more.

Evil Editor said...I was highly disappointed after all the conjecture about how the dead/missing woman got off the island to find she was in a car trunk. I was expecting it to be something ingenious.

Dave F. said...I thought that was too normal (leaving town in a trunk). It's logical and very simple, considering that simple works in most real life situations. However, in a novel one wants an escape worthy of James Bond movies *who started out in novels)...Gee that's a circular car chase argument. Exciting for exciting's sake. The thought did cross my mind that Harriet couldn't have hidden that many years without being discovered. And then I remember a visiting scientist I met at work (Bruce Proudfoot if you can believe that name) from Australia and how amazingly anarchic and independent of all government rules he was. Only in Australia would be the answer.

Robin S. said...Yep - not saying this is badly written. It isn't. But I am saying it doesn't seem to merit the 27 million or so copies sold. Maybe it's all about the sex and the misogyny. Reading about sanitary pads rammed down throats and suffocating tortured female victims. That kinda thing. Thank God I have more than one explicit sex scene in my novel.

Dave F. said...There are critics who compare the basement scenes to "Silence of the Lambs" and I think that's a little overdone. I would like to have seen Wennerstrom connected to that bit of killing. That, I think is the missing plot connection. An old two family skeleton of serial murders inspired by Nazi beliefs. Disturbing to even type that stuff.

Evil Editor said...Serial killers are fascinating. And plentiful if you can believe Criminal Minds. Maybe it's that you never think of serial killers living in Sweden. If I were a serial killer in Sweden I'd always be saying, it's too cold; I'll kill someone tomorrow.

Dave F. said...There was enough in the book that seems "otherwordly" and foreign to me. I was satisfied with that element of the book.

Robin S. said...I like the otherworldliness of the book. Agree with that. Like I said, not a bad read- well-written, etc. But I do think the 'darkness' of the subject and the death of the author, etc., lends itself to a certain mystique.

Dave F. said...Steve Allen (The comedian) once published a record under the "name" of a dead black piano player and the record was so successful that he had to admit what he did so he could publish the second album of piano jazz. Dead poets and writers have that mystique.

Evil Editor said...I liked it better than the other mysteries we've done.

Robin S. said...Yeah- it's head and shoulders above, for instance, the mystery about the newspaper murder. No argument there.

Dave F. said...I don't know if I would agree about being the best but it is a satisfying mystery. I enjoyed it.

Dave F. said...I did not buy the Swedish movie -- BTW. There is a US production company interested but no script and no actors. Just speculation.

Robin S. said...I wouldn't have bought this book for myself without it being on the Chat, so glad you had it on the list, EE, so I could see what the fuss was all about.

Evil Editor said...Anyway, if you haven't bought and read The Girl Who Played With Fire, do. Especially if you find Lisbeth Salander an intriguing character.

Dave F. said...I've read too much about it in the press and I don't care if you spoil it but you might be the only one here who read "Played With Fire".

Robin S. said...I haven't read the second one.

Evil Editor said...The third book is out, but possibly only in hardback.

Dave F. said...I'd rather have paperback. I got so many books laying around...

Evil Editor said...It's interesting to have a mystery series in which the stars are a publisher and a computer hacking woman. Usually if it's a series it's a detective or a lawyer or at least an amateur sleuth.

Dave F. said...A very non-standard mystery duo. How exciting can book publishing get? I mean unless you are Kitty Kelly or that woman who tried to publish OJ's "maybe I did something in a dream" book...

Robin S. said...Yeah, we've seen hackers in movies, etc., but the combo of publisher and hacker is interesting.

Evil Editor said...I think we've said all we had to say. I'm sure Sylvia will add her comments at the end, as will anyone else who cares to. I'm expecting Sylvia to show up in a few minutes and say that she thought it was now 10 AM eastern.

sylvia said...GAH I'm an hour out after all that?

sylvia said...Catching up now - I was worried everyone was going to say they really loved it. I thought it was OK but not mind-boggling. I am somewhat relieved to see that you guys had the same impression.

sylvia said...Well, you were absolutely right that I was not able to tell time. Sorry, I totally messed that up. A few more quick comments having read the rest: I did wonder if part of the excitement about the book was because it was Scandanavian, so viewpoint and minor details are quite different from what we might be used to with US/UK releases. We've read some translations before but I don't think "most people" who stick to the best seller list have? So there's an undercurrent there that feels fresh and different. I thought the story was good enough but I agree, it did feel distanced. I liked Blomqvist but he seemed like he was going to turn out OK regardless. Salander's life was scary and I respected her for remaining in control, but I didn't like her. As a result, I wasn't too invested in the story. I liked the tone and the overall darkness though and I will finish Played with Fire now.

fairyhedgehog said...I read "The Girl Who Played With Fire" first and enjoyed it more, but I think part of my enjoyment of this one was finding out things that had been referred to in the second book. I think of all of them, book two was my favourite. I think EE's comments about Salandar being the most interesting character are spot on. I did enjoy the hacking aspect, and the way that her past had affected her.

Book Chat 27: Charles Stross/ Halting State

2010-05-17T08:33:00.000-07:00

‪Evil Editor‬ said...So...I can see how the use of gaming terms, acronyms, Britishisms, made-up words would be intimidating at first. But when you consider that the story is being told in the present tense but is set in the future, you have to concede that the POV characters are using terms they assume their audience knows. Thus the author lets us figure out what the terms mean or ignore them, rather than insert a character who needs everything explained to him or pause with frequent info-dumps. So what was irritating at first, I found brilliant eventually.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...I preferred the "guess from context" method to an info dump.

‪Dave F.‬ said...I don't mind techno-speak in a book but then, I'm a technical person. While I was reading this I kept the computer next to me and searched out the terms. The colloquial terms were harder. NED for one.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...I think one of the narrators said that "ned" was Scottish for "chav". I admire you for looking things up, Dave. I just guessed and hoped!

‪Dave F.‬ said...A NED is: Non - educated delinquent Scottish Chav. Different accent ... similar clothing and same attitude.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...Chav?

‪stacy‬ said...I had to read Dickens's Great Expectations twice in a row to really get used to the 19th century style. (It was one of the first 19th century novels I ever read). I just found all the techno/corporate speak highly amusing. I'd read it again just for that.

‪sylvia‬ said...So what was irritating at first, I found brilliant eventually. I found I had the same reaction. I was really dubious about the whole presentation and ended up very much enjoying it. I really hated the second-person present tense aspect to start (I kept waiting for it to ask me what I wanted to do next, adventure-game style) but by the end, I had to admit it was no longer interfering.

stacy said...I was surprised that the whole book was (sort of) written in the second person. I've read over and over that second person never works, but leave it to Stross to make it work!

‪Robin S.‬ said…The second person stopped me up, too, but after I got used to it, it came in useful for humor. Check out page 269 about friendly pirhanhas and shagging the gamekeeper. I think for this kind of thing, second person was perfect - just that bit separated, so that you felt the self of the character as she herself was feeling, if I said that correctly.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...Yes, Robby, it's like he's saying, Put yourself in the place of this character; how would you feel?

‪Dave F.‬ said...I plowed through this second person and didn't even notice it. I didn't finish "And then we came to the end" which is second person because it was just too hard to keep reading 2nd person.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...I loved the way it was written in the style of a video game - 2nd person present tense because it made me nostalgic for the old text based games I used to play! Is there anyone here who can tell me whether the scenario is realistic? In particular I couldn't see why people would need to go in-game to steal game resources. Couldn't they just have nicked the code?

‪sylvia‬ said...FHH: I felt it was technologically feasible that they would want to break in the way he set it up, where they are using the same game world and underlying code, so the virtual worlds are connecting to each other.

‪Dave F.‬ said...In reality there's a news paper article on theft from on-line games.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10207486.stm  Police investigate Habbo Hotel virtual furniture theft 

Thieves have struck again in the virtual world Habbo Hotel. Finnish police are investigating up to 400 cases of theft, with some members reporting the loss of up to €1000 (£840) worth of virtual furniture and other items, according to Detective Sergeant Marko Levonen. "We have done ﬁve home searches in ﬁve cities in Finland," he said.

In 2007, a Dutch teenager was arrested for allegedly stealing virtual furniture worth thousands of euros on the site, which is believed to have more than 100 million registered "avatars".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/10207486.stm

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...Good link, Dave. It does suggest that the way to steal virtual goods is by password theft rather than by sending in a troop of orcs! That was the one bit that stretched my credulity too far. I kept thinking "but computers don't work like that".

‪Evil Editor‬ said...It's not enough that people steal identities, now they steal virtual identities. By the way, what do you do with virtual furniture?

‪stacy‬ said...Does the stealing of something virtual eventually translate to real money?

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...People do make real money from gold farming in games. There's an interesting article that touches on it in this week's New Scientist in an interview with Cory Doctorow.

‪sylvia‬ said...Stacy: it was a finance scheme so yes, it was about real money, in terms of shares/stocks.

‪stacy‬ said...Ah - that was what I gathered in the book, Sylvia. Thanks! I'm guessing the stealing of virtual goods eventually translates to lost (real) money. The thief steals the goods and then sells them to someone else in the game. That's my guess.

‪sylvia‬ said...While I was reading the book, I saw a TOR blurb about Cory Doctorow and how exciting that he'd written a novel that took place in the virtual worlds of games. I was glancing at my screen and then back at the book, thinking - umm, yeah that's not so new?

‪stacy‬ said...Oh, I'm sure that concept has been done before. But I think Stross handled the idea in a pretty original and effective way

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...Well, there aren't that many books set in virtual worlds, partly because I think it's quite hard to pull it off. I like Cory Doctorow because of his attitude to piracy and Digital rights.

‪stacy‬ said...I do think the action got off to a relatively slow start, though. Lots of buildup to an actual confrontation.

‪Robin S.‬ said...I had a hard time getting into this one because it's so different for me - and because I avoid the technological in the normal course of my life, but I agree, it was well done. I had to get used to it, though.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...I can see how the game Spooks would attract millions of players. I want to play it.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...Spooks does sound fun but I prefer my games to be virtual.

‪Dave F.‬ said...I don't play online games. I don't know what is considered valuable in them.

‪stacy‬ said...Never heard of Spooks. What kind of game is it?

‪Dave F.‬ said...Spooks seemed to me to be one of those mystery games where an "assignment" pops up on your computer and you execute it never knowing what the true purpose of it is. It's like a giant conspiracy theory set into motion.

‪sylvia‬ said...Four-square on the iPhone is sort of similar actually - you have to go to real places and do things. I haven't played it (I think it's US only?) but it certainly seems like a precursor to Spooks.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...It's like a role playing game but instead of taking place in your home or on your screen, you go out in the world. You get a phone call telling you what your task is. Everyone's a spy.

‪sylvia‬ said...Spooks was the game that Elaine played, with phone calls to do delivery and fake spy missions and other real-time real-world quests. I would totally play it.

‪stacy‬ said...Right - I remember it in the book, but is it really a game that people play or is it something Stross made up? Too lazy to look it up. ; )

‪Evil Editor‬ said...I assumed it was made up.

‪stacy‬ said...I wonder if it's something derived from the BBC series. That sounds really cool. I'd play it.

‪Dave F.‬ said...And the other really big technical part - the surviellance:

The most visible of those decisions is a network of more than 4 million closed circuit television cameras blanketing the country -- a virtual eye covering train stations, airports, streets, and other landmarks.  http://abcnews.go.com/WN/prevent-times-square-terror-bomb-england-security-camera/story?id=10566016

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...I love the glasses that overlay reality with fiction. Now those I'd love to have.

‪Dave F.‬ said...I thought the police dilemma of tapped phones and corrupted networks was a real possibility. The only way around that is the "one time use" cell phones.

‪sylvia‬ said...Yeah, I loved the idea that the cops ended up having to work around their own network and find disposable communications systems. I also really enjoyed the old-world feeling of Edinburgh's buildings with the virtual glasses giving nav aids with pop-up arrows to show you where to go.

‪Dave F.‬ said...I've known people who established secure networks and I don't panic at the thought of those networks falling or being hacked. Most ID theft and hacking you read about is the result of stupidity on the user. Of course, I'm totally paranoid. Stross does certain technical descriptions very well and very exciting. In this case it was the failure of the nitrogen containment of the quantum memory drive. There's a chunk of story after that where I was adrift and aimless until the two main characters got back into technology.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...It's amazing how quickly this near future stuff becomes reality. Stross talks about it on his blog (although that entry is mostly about how you deal with wrongly foreseeing the results of an election).

‪Dave F.‬ said...I did get lost in the last half of the book as to who was doing what double-cross and why. Stross threw in an extra level of complexity there that caused me some grief. Just about the time I wanted a rampaging, action filled chase to the catch the killer, there's another switchback (so to speak).

‪Robin S.‬ said...Reading about this kind of world - It's the kind of thing that makes you wanna move out into the country, with no Internet access. OR to totally submerge yourself in a game. One or the other.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...To put all your money in a mattress.

‪sylvia‬ said...Robin: That's so true. I was torn between really wanting the games and gadgets from the story and wanting to hide away somewhere and become Amish. He's done a good balance with that, I think.

‪Robin S.‬ said...Amish! Yeah, Sylvia, that was a hoot! I was thinking about being the female version of Jeremiah Johnson out in Colorado, so Amish probably is better! Anyway, I lost the thread towards the end as well. I got confused over what was what, but just kept reading, pretending to be in a game (I never know where I am in those either, when one of my kids has me check one out...)

fairyhedgehog said...
For me, the true ending came at the end of Jack'a last chapter, when he says "Game over" to Elaine.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...Viewed as a police procedural, we watch the detectives use their methods to catch the criminal. It's a satisfying ending, as we'd find in any murder mystery.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...I'm quite relieved to find that other people got a bit confused towards the end. I mostly gave up on the plot by the end. I got to the point where Elaine and Jack were more important to me than who did it. I really enjoyed the main characters.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...Yes, as it went on I started worrying, If the villain isn't Sue, Elaine or Jack, I'm gonna have to read it again just to remember who that person was.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said... Computers and the Internet may have downsides but I'd be lost without them now. And Stross's view of the future suggests that our dependence will grow stronger!

‪stacy‬ said...I wasn't sure I'd enjoy it because I'm not a gamer. But eventually I found myself engrossed. I did also get a sudden urge to reread LOTR, though. So I can identify with what Robin said about wanting to move to the country with no Internet access. But seriously, if I did that, it would suck. I'd be lost without you guys! : )

‪Robin S.‬ said...You're right, Stace. There world for me would NOT be a better place without you guys! Glad I finally figured out what a blog was when I found EE's place. How about that Nigerian email at the end? Did it feel like old home week to you, Sparky?

‪Evil Editor‬ said...Yes. It was like he tacked on that ending just for us.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...I didn't understand what the Nigerian email was there for.

‪sylvia‬ said...The email at the end - I didn't think of that. It is rather perfect :D

‪stacy‬ said...I don't think Stross mangled the English language enough in the Nigerian e-mail.

‪sylvia‬ said...The letter is where the real money was hidden - so for once, it wasn't a scam, it was real.

‪stacy‬ said...Ah ha! That was what I suspected.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...But no one will get the money because it's been identified as probable spam.

‪Dave F.‬ said...The Nigerian e-mail -- I had this strange thought that the proceeds of the bad guy's theft went to this Nigerian as misdirected and this email is a very wry and ironic comment on the scams we get all the time. This time, the email is true but no one will believe it. Kind of an ironic twist

‪sylvia‬ said...The ending felt rushed to me, everything piled on. But I wasn't sure how much of that was because I missed important foreshadowing and clues in the start.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...It's easy to miss stuff if you don't speak English (as I apparently don't).

‪sylvia‬ said...I enjoyed it and I bought a copy to give to someone else as a gift. I still think it's a very odd book to choose as an introduction to his work though - reading the blurbs for his other books, they seem more accessible.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...It was his suggestion, on the grounds that we aren't all SF fans, and thus those who aren't might like it on the mystery/police procedural level.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...It's also a love story, with Jack and Elaine. I enjoyed their bits the most.

‪stacy‬ said...I did too, I think Jack was my favorite character. I also love how Stross captured the BS that goes on in business-related interactions.

‪Dave F.‬ said...The Elaine and Jack love story grounded the novel. It's the one constant throughout the book. We want them to get together and succeed.

‪sylvia‬ said...Yes, Dave, I think that's exactly it.

‪stacy‬ said...I also love how neither one of them were beautiful or stunning. Elaine was described as rather mousy and Jack was overweight. And I really wanted to see them get together even when they first met.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...I'd forgotten the BS factor, stacy, and yes he did capture that really well.

‪Robin S.‬ said...Oh yeah, the BS factor. Alive and living in DC, that's for sure.Do you think there might have been one too many layers in this novel, maybe? That he tried on too much? I ask this as a non techie person, I'll grant you, but as a reader, I feel more satisfied if I see the point at the end, even if the end, per se, isn't what I wished for.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...Yes, amazing that he can capture all that even though he lives in Scotland, which is still in the dark ages. He has the Internet to thank.

‪Cliff‬ said...> Scotland, which is still in the dark ages..as opposed to the American South? He has the Internet to thank....< which, in part, he helped to develop.

‪Robin S.‬ said...Ha, Cliff! I just read your comment and EE's that started it, to John, and he got a good chuckle of out that.

‪stacy‬ said...Charles Stross helped develop the Internet?

‪Cliff‬ said...Well, bits of it.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...He was Al Gore's 2nd in command

‪sylvia‬ said...There were definitely issues that felt core that I didn't really feel I understood - like the "virtual" fight with the Red Team guy in the physical convention hall. I guess what's really amazing is that there are all different aspects that people didn't grasp and yet the novel held together despite that!

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...It's unusual that a book that we all mostly liked gives us so much to talk about.

‪stacy‬ said...I think that's because he has so many layers in it, FH. What didn't work for one person worked for another, and parts of it worked for all of us. So to answer Robin's question, no, I don't think he tried to pile on too much.

‪sylvia‬ said...FHH: I agree!

‪Robin S.‬ said...I agree, FH. Makes me think I need to reread this novel - that I missed explanatory bits while trying to understand the tech. And maybe then I'd see what I think of as the 'good ambiguity' in endings of novels I've read and loved.

Stacy said…I read somewhere that cars with Internet access are subject to braking and system lock-up via smart phones. Meaning, a person with a smart phone can hack a car's system and jam the brakes or the steering. That's scary, but what a great plot point for a Bond film or something.

Dave F. said...Stacy, the computer controlled cars maintain a record of the way the car is being driven and warning lights and speeds and all that. Certain ONSTAR cars can be shut down remotely. And if there is a GPS in the car, it can be tracked online. Kinda too much -- We know what you are doing.

‪stacy‬ said...Fortunately, I have purchased a 15 year old Chevrolet Cavalier. So I'm neither in danger of being watched by Big Brother through it or in danger of the car getting stolen.

‪Dave F.‬ said...If you drive through toll booths and use the electronic pay systems, the police have access to your times and direction.

Evil Editor said...That stuff comes in handy when your car is stolen.

stacy said...Good point, EE.

Robin S.. said…Dave, I'm with you. Getting nannied to death ain't my cup of tea, and it also leads to screwups.

Robin S. said...Insurance comes in even handier when your car is stolen, EE, and they can't track your every movement like some Orwellian societal fuckup.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...Insurance doesn't help when you're carjacked while your baby is in the car seat.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...In any case, I assume GPS is optional or removable.

‪Dave F.‬ said...And just to stoke the paranoia some more -- Google and other programming organizations are going to release "facial recognition" software in the next year or two. So if you have a face you want to ID, you can find it anywhere on the internet. That's neat for the facebook generation or the professional photographer who wants to control his images but ...

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...Dave, that's scary.

‪stacy‬ said...At certain grocery stores in Chicago they had thumbprint recognition. Some people are really wary of stuff like this. I had a roommate who refused to get his cats chipped because he thought humans would be next.

‪sylvia‬ said...I have to admit my cat is chipped. But I was completely shocked when a friend of mine (in his 20s) was asking why people didn't get chipped as the technology was there. It seemed to him obvious that this would be a good thing.

‪stacy‬ said...I think that's why I liked Jack best, but identified with Elaine the most.

‪Robin S.‬ said...Yeah, it is scary. You really have to think about how engaged you want to be in this stuff, and stand back from some of it. Google is under pressure for its tactics, here in the States and in Europe. They don't give a rolling fuck about helping us ya know - it's all about profit. I'm not ever against profit, mind you, but I am against profit when it's covertly earned at my literal expense.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...If everyone who had an unpleasant divorce had their kids chipped...

‪stacy‬ said…It would certainly bring down the kidnapping rate. But once we go there, we can't really go back.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...That's the trouble with all technology - you can't go back. On the whole I wouldn't want to but there are downsides and the police state the UK is becoming is one of them.

‪stacy‬ said...Yes, FH. The legal system (at least here) is very open to manipulation. We're creeping away from the fail-safes we've had in place to protect the innocent.

‪stacy‬ said...But even those aren't enough, sometime.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...That's why none of us is on Facebook.

‪stacy‬ said...I agree, Robin.

‪stacy‬ said...Hey! I'm on Facebook, actually. My entire self-worth is wrapped up in how many "friends" I have on FB. ; )

‪Evil Editor‬ said...Your worth to advertisers is wrapped up in how many friends you have.

‪stacy‬ said...Oh, thanks, EE. I feel loads better.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...I'm on facebook under my real name, mostly as a way for friends to find me. I always ask them to go to email but not many of them do, so I don't use it much. I don't link my facebook account to my blog!

‪stacy‬ said...But that brings me to another point: The Internet has really screwed up my concentration. I'm much more ADD than I was a few years ago. My attention span is much shorter.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...I'm guessing that we might concentrate for shorter spans now but we can multitask better.

‪sylvia‬ said...I would still play Spooks.

‪stacy‬ said...Oh, absolutely, Sylvia!

‪Dave F.‬ said...I don't so anything wrong so I don't care how much they watch me. I'm really boring.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...It's not true that if you're innocent you've nothing to fear. Read Doctorow's Little Brother - it's fiction but I'm guessing the facts aren't too different.

‪stacy‬ said...I've not read LITTLE BROTHER yet. Looking forward to it.

‪Robin S.‬ said...Agree about the innocence being a non-factor. The gov likes us to believe that, that life is well in hand, and organized thusly - but staying off radar is better than only innocence, and even that is no guarantee. Sylvia, that chip thing from the friend in his 20's is frightening. I think it's a painful choice that makes you take sides within yourself. I was worried to death about my daughter when she first hit 16 or so and could drive around etc but we still didn't opt to Big Brother her with the trackable thing on her cell. It was a gut reaction to thinking back on my own life at her age.

‪fairyhedgehog‬ said...It wasn't even an option when my boys hit that age. It was scary to let them go and I liked them being able to get in touch through their mobile phones. Not that they were very good at it! We tried using parental filters online and found we couldn't get onto any site that didn't have a licence - including some BBC children's programs. So we gave up and relied on educating them about the dangers and I suspect that was in any case the better option.

‪Robin S.‬ said...Agree on both counts, FH. The cell is there and that's more than any other generation ever had - and as for filters, I agree, education and learning is a better life lesson.

‪Evil Editor‬ said...Cell phones are as big brotherish as anything. They can tell where you are, who you call and who calls you. I know because they do it all the time on Law and Order.

‪Robin S.‬ said...Yeah, I think they have records of texts, too. I told The Blondster that, just so she knows there ain't nothin' secret if it's in the hands of someone who's not you yourself. Anyway, privacy issues seem to be brought to the fore with this novel, and that in itself is a good thing, I'm thinking.

‪Dave F.‬ said...I know a guy whose chipped, bodybuilder - muscleman type. His partner wanted it and he agreed. You can feel this little bump under the skin at the base of his neck.I think the younger generation is more open and online than the older generation (read "we" old folk). My paranoia stems from 15 years ago and AOL's stupidity.

‪stacy‬ said...How come his partner wanted that, Dave? Wow.

‪Dave F.‬ said...Stacy, They play Master/dog games. The chipped one dresses up like a dog - tail and all. Don't ask me why. It's their shtick, They're good guys and treat me well so I just don't ask about that anymore than I can avoid.

‪stacy‬ said...Wow, people's kinks, huh?

‪Dave F.‬ said...Kinky? Hey, I sit for hours at a blank piece of paper or a computer screen to put 500 words on the page and then edit them obsessively for months on end. That's kinky too.

Book Chat 26: Anne Fadiman/The Spirit Catches You and You Fall Down

2010-04-18T16:40:00.000-07:00

Evil Editor said...Hi Anne. Thanks for coming. So, am I ill-informed because I'd never heard of the Hmong?

Anne Fadiman said...EE: Not at all. When I began this project, my knowledge of the Hmong (a word I had no idea how to pronounce) was a mere wisp. And that was one reason I was drawn to the subject. I like the adrenaline of a steep learning curve.

sylvia said...My mother worked with the Hmong in the 80s so I had a lot of context for this book (which was great btw)

Evil Editor said...In what country did she work with them?

sylvia said...In LongBeach, California - same issues as Anne describes: massive immigration and low integration and trying to work out how to deal with it. The Public Health Department hired my mother as a linguist - working on training interpretors and looking at how to teach English / get information across to people who couldn't read.

Anne Fadiman said...Sylvia--I'm curious. When your mother was working with the Hmong in Long Beach, did she find her work more frustrating or more exciting? Did she like the Hmong?

sylvia said...Anne: I recognised my mother in the "liberals from other cities" that you described. She loved the challenge - she was knocking down assumptions about language learning, especially for immigrants - so the Hmong gave her an excellent platform for proving that ESL tactics didn't work. Some of the issues you brought up were familiar - I remember there were issues with suspected child abuse because of the marks left by coins and my mother explaining that it wasn't abuse (and that it wasn't painful, so I grinned at the "yes it was" comment in your book) There was this horrifying miscommunication where someone at the Health Department was trying to explain about blood banks and the Hmong were already upset about having their life force stolen (that's how I remember it being phrased) because the nurses kept taking blood. And then someone said that you could donate blood to the blood bank and get paid. The Hmong suddenly understood what was happening: the nurses drew all that blood from patients so they could sell it to the blood bank and make money.

Evil Editor said...Those crazy Hmong!

AF said...EE: Er, I hope you don't really mean "those crazy Hmong." Do you? In the early days, American physicians seemed equally peculiar to the Hmong, and made any number of misinterpretations--for instance, assuming that Hmong parents wanted to take home their babies' placentas in order to eat them, which was of course completely untrue. I don't think the Hmong are the least bit crazy.

Evil Editor said...Just joking about the misunderstandings.

sylvia said...As I was reading, I couldn't help but think that it must have been a huge challenge just working out where to start.

Anne Fadiman said..."Where to start": a good description. There was the question of where to start in the interviewing; where to start in deciding which case to follow; and, years later, when I was ready to write, where to start on the first page.

sylvia said...Yes, it seems like it must have been really overwhelming in all of those senses.

Dave F. said...The cultural aspects of the Hmong were fascinating but the "insensitivity" (for lack of a better word) of the medical staff was just phenomenal. I've seen arrogance in doctors but not to that extent.

Anne Fadiman said...Insensitivity of doctors: Well, yes, but there was a broad spectrum. Dr. Small was genuinely insensitive. Neil Ernst and Peggy Philp were exceptionally altruistic and well-intentioned, but hampered by the culture of medicine. Dan Murphy was comfortable and multiculturally skilled.

Dave F. said...I liked the opening of the first and second chapters. Both work well for the stories.

Evil Editor said...What came as a big surprise was that people so primitive in some respects--such that after a few chapters I assumed they were all illiterate farmers--were suddenly declared to have flown war planes. How did the US manage to train the Hmong to be pilots?

Anne Fadiman said...You don't have to read to fly a plane or drive a car. You can learn by watching someone else do it, and many Hmong became exceptionally good pilots.

Evil Editor said...Still, it's a bit disconcerting to realize when I board a plane that the pilot may not know how to read.

Dave F. said...They weren't pilots on commercial airliners, they were pilots on fighter jets and only had to know when to fire missiles and drop bombs. Trained killers. They were like Roman soldiers or Spartans or Pharonic Egyptians trained to kill.

Anne Fadiman said...I'm not sure "trained killers" is exactly right. Many Hmong were very fine pilots who, in addition to flying combat missions, also rescued downed American flight crews, carried supplies, and ferried other soldiers by air.

Dave F. said...I know a mom, very devoted to her children who had three boys and the fourth was her much desired for daughter and was born with a severe mental handicap. It was tragic to watch. I had the same feelings when I read this.

Evil Editor said...Lia is still alive at the end of the book right? What's happened since then?

Anne Fadiman said...Lia is still alive, still in a persistent vegetative state, and still living at home, lovingly cared for by her mother and sisters.

sylvia said...I had assumed that Lia had died after the final epileptic fit. I was somewhere around page 200, thinking the rest of the book was going to be focused on the general cultural issues and then when we went back to the Lee family I almost dropped the book I was so surprised. I definitely made the presumption that of course the doctors were right.

Evil Editor said...I wondered why more of the kids didn't act as translators, as they are excellent students. Is Lia's family typical? Is communication easier with many Hmong families?

AF said...First of all, the events in this book took place in the early 80s, and there have been huge changes in Hmong-American culture since then. Less translation is needed, since in most families only the elders are still monolingually Hmong. Second, although it's true that Hmong students do well on average, it's important not to stereotype--especially because they're so much more heterogeneous than they were twenty-five years ago. There are some excellent students (and, among slightly older Hmong, there are doctors, lawyers, professors . . .). There are also Hmong gangs. In other words, a mix.

Dave F. said...Foua had so many children. Not that the culture didn't honor and love children but the sheer number who must have died at a young age is just breathtaking.
It's heartbreaking in so many ways.

sylvia said...Are you still in touch with the families you met while doing the interviews?

A.F. said...Yes, I'm in touch with the Lees, and also with most of their doctors, and with my interpreter and cultural broker, May Ying Xiong Ly. They're all very important to me.

Evil Editor said...Do all Hmong children learn the Hmong language, or do some just learn English now?

AF said...EE: Most young Hmong today are bilingual and bi-cultural. Many know English better than they know Hmong, but most can easily converse in both.

Dave F. said...When I read of the "spirits" of the house (even a mud floored house) and how they sanctified it, I thought about them being a forest culture with no real organized religion (like Christianity, Judaism or the polytheistic Greek and Rome pantheon) and it made sense. There were spirits around doing good and evil and they could be "talked" to and "bribed" ...

AF said...It's true that the Hmong didn't have a conventional "organized" religion, but animism is a pretty powerful cultural force. Spirituality played a far larger role in traditional Hmong culture than any religion does in our own culture.

sylvia said...I was very intrigued by the argument that the doctors weren't treating the soul, that made a lot of sense once phrased that way.

AF said..."Treating the soul": Yes, that was a crucial issue. If you believe that an illness has been caused by soul loss, then ignoring the soul means you're ignoring the most essential aspect.

Evil Editor said...Sad as Lia's case is, the saddest part for me was when the Hmong trekking to Thailand passed an abandoned baby and left it there. That takes true desperation.

AF said...That was emblematic of tragedies we can only begin to imagine. I remember when Dang Moua told me about that baby. He'd never gotten over it. However, he couldn't have taken it. He couldn't have fed or carried it.

sylvia said...I emailed my mother who said to tell you that she loved your book. I asked her for recollections, here is what she sent me:

We field tested a slide show on TB one time with different refugee
groups. The university who created the content had included info on
the history of TB (what?) and had several slides with explanations of
germs using clouds with faces to explain how germs travel. Refugee
clients who were part of the field test did worse on the post-test
than on the pre-test ... meaning they were much more confused after they
heard the information than before ( the information packet was
developed by doctors specifically for refugees).

I loved working with the families - they just soldiered on trying to
make sense of a totally new world

Do you remember the story of Moa one of my translators who was working
on a translation and asked if americnas really ate "flesh"? I thought
she meant meat but she said no she meant human flesh - I said
cannibalism? and explained what that meant and she said YES

I asked about the piece she was translating and it turned out that it was a
warning against eating mussels. She knew the word muscles from her
work in the health department which in Hmong was translated as flesh
and hence the confusion.

AF said...Sylvia: Please thank your mother for those fascinating recollections. The bottom line seems to be that the Hmong were actually being quite reasonable (for instance, confusing the homonyms muscles/mussels), and that their American "educators" hadn't yet figured out how to communicate effectively with them (hence the greater confusion after than before the TB slide show).

Dave F. said...I helped a Chinese Scientist translate papers on gasification of coal into English and there were all sorts of strange mistranslations. His government gave him the 6 week quicky Berlitz course in English and WOW, he did so much better than I would have done with Chinese. Colloquialisms were everywhere and ragingly awful to translate. Am I wrong in saying that the Hmong honor their children?

AF said...Dave: The Hmong do indeed love their children very much. However, on the whole it's riskier to make blanket statements today that begin "The Hmong do X . . ." than it was when they first arrived from Thai refugee camps in the late 70s and early 80s. As I mentioned earlier, they were much more homogeneous. Some Hmong have expressed understandable frustration that some Anglo readers assume nothing has changed since the period this book describes, even though 25 years have passed. The book isn't about the Hmong now.

Dave F. said...Yes, I understand the point. It was 25 years ago and we all change (and hopefully learn). One of the oddest things that I learned from the Chinese scientist was that he never drove a car, didn't have the desire to drive a car and didn't care -- mass transit, bikes and walking was good enough. I think we vaccinate our male babies at birth in the love of red, fast sporty convertibles with powerful engines.

Evil Editor said...Out of curiosity:
Do Hmong who've become doctors tend to work in Hmong communities?
Do members of Hmong gangs still sacrifice animals etc. ? We don't think of American gang members as religious/spiritual, but maybe Hmong are?

AF said...EE: I would guess that some Hmong doctors work in Hmong communities and some don't. (You see a pattern here: it's simply harder to generalize today about anything in Hmong-American culture than it was twenty or thirty years ago.) But I don't know, since my connection with the Hmong community is purely amateur these days. I'm in contact with my Hmong friends, but I'm not reporting on this topic any more.
Hmong gangs: I have no idea. There's certainly some animal sacrifice still going on among traditional Hmong animists, generally for healing purposes or at important life milestones (naming ceremonies, weddings, funerals). The animals all get eaten, so I'm not sure this should be seen as vastly weirder than buying burger meat at the Safeway.

Dave F. said...Round about 1995, I had the owner of a Chinese Restaurant that I knew very well and ate at twenty times a month tell me that his "old" clientele wanted the exotic foods -- that included dog and cat and other things we never eat in this country. That's not too long ago. the old are set in their ways.

Evil Editor said...They all taste like chicken drowned in soy sauce.

Dave F. said...HAHA - stuff like that does not pass my lips.

AF said...Just a reminder: The Hmong don't eat dogs.

sylvia said...I thought you did a really good job dealing with the economic issues in Merced, dealing with the issues from all different perspectives. That seems like it must have been a bit of a tightrope act to write.

AF said...Thanks. It didn't feel like a tightrope. I just wanted to be as accurate as I could. My role wasn't to defend one side or the other, just to enable the reader to understand both.

Evil Editor said...And a good job not making the doctors or the Hmong the good guys or the villains.

AF said...I was fortunate that both Lia's parents and her doctors were honorable, well-intentioned, and intelligent people. Believe me, if her parents had been abusive or her doctors had been racist, I would have put that in the book! But they weren't. In other words, reality rather than any sort of skilled juggling act provided the balance.

sylvia said...I loved how they were cheating on the driving test using cross stitch :)
Re: Doctors vs Hmong. Yes, that's another great example of balancing the different perspectives. Even though it was horrible that they took Lia away from her parents, I could understand the doctor's frustration that they were refusing to give the child her medication, "knowing" that they were risking brain damage when he was trying like crazy to treat her.

AF said...I have to say good-bye in five or ten minutes (which doesn't mean this chat needs to stop). Just wanted to let you all know that in case you're holding brilliant questions in reserve for the last moment!

Evil Editor said...I see you have a book of essays available, Anne; are you working on a book right now? Is book writing not your main thing?

AF said...Well, let's see. I've written a couple of books of essays since Spirit, and edited a couple of others. So essays have been my primary genre in recent years. I'm not working on a book at the moment because I'm teaching full-time at Yale while my writer husband works on a book. (We alternate.) I love the teaching, so this is anything but a hardship.

Evil Editor said...Yale. That was Evil Jr.'s safety school. Have you considered a book delving this deeply into some other culture?

AF said...I doubt I'd ever write another crosscultural book. I like new challenges, and I've already said pretty much everything I have to say on the subject. But I may do more writing on medical subjects. I've been brewing a couple of ideas in that realm.

Dave F. said...Like I said, I enjoyed the book and I enjoyed reading your comments.

AF said...Thanks so much, Dave. I'll hang on for a few more minutes in case anyone has a last question.

sylvia said...You may have mentioned this but what actually made you look into this in the first place? That is, what started the ball rolling?

AF said...An old college friend was the chief resident in family practice at the county hospital in Merced, CA. Bill told me about some of the conflicts between Hmong and their doctors once when we were catching up on the phone, as we did every few months. He didn't mention Lia, just the general idea of crosscultural communication problems. This was one of several story ideas I proposed to The New Yorker--in fact, probably the one about which I knew the least--and it was just a matter of chance that the editor chose it rather than another. It's amazing how completely one's life can be changed by such small, random events.

Evil Editor said...Thanks so much for coming. These chats are always more fun with the author.

sylvia said...Yes, thank you! The book was fascinating and it was great to be able to ask direct questions and hear more about your experiences.

AF said...To all: This was such a pleasure! Thanks for your thoughtful questions. When I was working on this book--an eight-year marathon--I thought about 17 people would read it, and in a couple of years it would be completely forgotten. So it's very cheering to converse with all of you. You've obviously read it carefully, and that's what every author dreams of.

Book Chat 25: Steven Millhauser/Dangerous Laughter

2010-03-19T16:09:00.000-07:00

ril said...So, tardy as usual, I'm only part way into Millhauser's collection...

Evil Editor said...How far'd you get?

ril said...I just finished "The room in the Attic." I wanted to know what she looked like. I was disappointed...

Evil Editor said...What do you think she looked like?

ril said...I wanted her to be beautiful. I was expecting her to be plain. I wondered briefly if she were Wolf. I'm left knowing little about her...

Dave F. said...I felt isolation in "Attic" and some of the anonymous communication people so like. It's not deep and caring but cursory and fleeting.

Evil Editor said...So, the opening cartoon. An idea I wish I'd thought of. Amazing how many of the scenes felt familiar.

Dave F. said...The cartoon imagery was familiar and unfamiliar. His style is is different.

Evil Editor said...His style is different but everything is clear. None of that fancy crap.

ril said...No, definitely no purple prose. Just clear descriptions of a moment in time. One could imagine him detailing a grain of sand.

Evil Editor said...And then detailing those details.

ril said...I thought the cartoon was going to be a bit pedestrian, but it grew on me, and I liked the way he started to psychoanalyze their relationship. Present tense, of course, was perfect for that.

Dave F. said...I used to go to a small theater in the times before fixed starting times and when balconies existed and we always started with a cartoon. Sadly, now, they always start with previews and advertisements. They consider the cartoons too violent. this was a throwback and the familiarity and detail was comforting.

Evil Editor said...There was an opening cartoon in Roger Rabbit. Violent, of course.

ril said...What struck me about the 'cartoon' was the sense of melancholy. The cat and mouse are resigned to needing each other and existing only for the sake of the other.

Evil Editor said...An obvious analogy to world politics, war, and the Donald Trump/Rosie O'Donnell spat.

ril said...Yes, quite obvious. Though Rosie probably wouldn't get through the mousehole.

Dave F. said...Codependency is the word.

Dave F. said...I read stories out of order. there's three parts to the book. Each in detail, each with a theme.

Evil Editor said...Turns out the first section, Vanishing Acts, is the only one that's actually stories. Impossible Architectures is essays in which he takes cool ideas, carries them to ridiculous extremes, and then carries them even farther. I found them hilarious, but they might be better individually than clumped together. Of course, they originally appeared in different places, and weren't intended to be clumped together.

fairyhedgehog said...That's interesting that it's not all stories. I didn't feel that plot was his strongest point.

ril said...I saw a review that said of this collection, essentially the sum was not greater than the parts and his stories are better taken individually...

fairyhedgehog said...I've only read the first four stories. He's great at the right details for description but I have a sense of the stories not going anywhere. It's like there's this mysterious atmosphere, which is described at great length, and then "she died" or "she disappeared" THE END. I'd love to be able to write descriptions with his eye for detail.

ril said...There were some wonderful phrases, like "hands dipped in work"...

Dave F. said...This is one book that I'm going to keep and completely finish. I usually give the books away to my family. Some books I read fast all the way through. Other books I savor the story slowly. This isn't one of the latter. I enjoyed what I read. The commentary is interesting, thoughtful and fun to read.

ril said...What I've read, they're more like vignettes or character studies.

Dave F. said...I look at this more like Holst's "The Planets" or Bach's "Well Tempered Clavier" or Messian's "20 Contemplations on the Infant Jesus" all of which contain musical essays on sort-of disparate topics. That episodic feel doesn't bother me.

Evil Editor said...I read one story a day. Not because I'd read that review, but because I didn't want to finish the whole thing three weeks before the chat. He does have some novels out; it would be interesting to see if they're standard novels or connected character studies. He won the Pulitzer for his novel Martin Dressler. Wonder if it's a character study of Martin Dressler.

ril said...According to Wikipedia, Martin Dressler vividly evokes its time and place through elaborate description...

ril said...I think suspension of disbelief is a requirement. Like something delicate, I don't think these stories stand up to too much analysis...Like in the Room in the Attic -- Actually it's difficult to buy a room being totally dark with only a pair of curtains at the window...

fairyhedgehog said...I think you're right, ril. I was disappointed, though, because the stories seemed to promise more than they delivered.

ril said...Indeed, the paradox of Magic Realism is how the magic makes it unrealistic...It's almost a tease... Like Isabel's games.

Dave F. said...He's very good at detailed description and that is how he tells the story.

Dave F. said...Take something like "The Other Town" where the city builds a replica -- how many times in our lives do we create monuments to unreality? How many people build a life on cards or sand or out of wishful thoughts?

Evil Editor said...I liked the cartoon and the first two sections a lot. I was a bit bored by Heretical Histories (which no one else here got to, I take it?) It seemed to be using the same idea as the Impossible Architectures, and by then I'd had enough. But again, the stories first appeared in various places, and were only collected into this book in hopes of cashing in twice for the same material.

ril said...Yeah, that review I read said the collection got tedious by repetition. I'm not there yet...He still teaches for a living, so I suppose "cashing in" is relative.

Dave F. said...I'm still not convinced that alternate histories are worth it. I didn't want to say that out loud for fear of getting stones thrown at me.

ril said..."The Disappearance of Elaine Coleman" and "The Room in the Attic" both have a kind of teenage angst feel to them. Like they're filtered through undeveloped emotions, where small things seem huge even though they're, well, not that big...

fairyhedgehog said...I enjoyed the cartoon at first but I kept wanting it to go somewhere and I never felt it did. I didn't get beyond Vanishing Acts, I'm afraid.

ril said...I actually look back on the cartoon as my favorite one so far. Maybe it struck me as the most original idea...

ril said...I'm not sure how much I'd enjoy reading it a second time, though...

Evil Editor said...I read it a second time this morning. I actually liked it better.

Evil Editor said...I'll have to line up a short story collection that's actual stories for a future chat.

ril said...Oh, and the author's picture on the back of the book looks remarkably like Dave's picture here. Coincidence?

Evil Editor said...It's the exact same angle. Can't be coincidence.

Dave F. said...HEAVENS RIL -- only the fact that we both are male, have gray hair and glasses make us look alike. I see my face in the mirror and I saw my picture before I touched it up for online (gasp, giggle, guffaw)...My morning laugh and nearly choke to death.

Dave F. said...I never look at EE's books as problems. Most of them I wouldn't ever under any circumstances buy, let alone read. So I never mind the agony of reading them if it is not what I typically read. But then, I can still work up a student's enthusiasm.

ril said...I'm usually pretty selective about which ones I try, not least because of the cost of getting them over here.

Evil Editor said...I assume current bestsellers are easier to get in Japan than obscure small press books.

ril said...Generally, yes, though interestingly I had no problem getting this collection. Amazon.jp had it in stock already. If not in stock, books can take 3 or 4 weeks to arrive. Maybe I should get a Kindle...

Evil Editor said...The Kindle is much cooler than I thought possible. I don't have one, but I've tried one out.

sylvia said...I got a Kindle for my birthday and bought this book in Kindle format from Amazon. It's useful for getting books quickly - and means I don't have to get the book chat books so far in advance to save shipping costs.

ril said...I'm tempted by the Kindle, but the price is still pretty high. Was surprised to hear they sell the books for it at a loss.

fairyhedgehog said...I try to read all the ones that I think I won't positively hate. I've read a lot that I wouldn't have gone for and enjoyed some of them!

Evil Editor said...Sorry, had to take a phone call. I'm back.

ril said...It wasn't Steven Millhauser bitching about us was it?

Evil Editor said...Millhauser. Doesn't even make himself reachable online so I can bug him to show up for a four-person chat about his book that three of the people barely started.

ril said...His loss.

sylvia said...The sun came out and I was tempted by the great outside. I forgot about the chat completely!

ril said...Hope you haven't read the book. It would be so awkward, otherwise.

Evil Editor said...Did you read the whole book, Syl?

sylvia said...I haven't finished the book. I was really unhappy with the first one - but one of my pet peeves is people telling me the plot to television shows or movies they've seen. So I kept thinking "you aren't really going to describe the whole series to me, are you?" Because it was a book chat book, I continued and I'm glad I did. That was the only one that I had such a negative reaction to.

Evil Editor said...You hated the cartoon? Obviously you didn't watch Tom and Jerry in your formative years.

sylvia said...I did! I just didn't like sitting through the retelling of them. It's a pet hate of mine but just felt like a silly joke taken way too far. I guess it's just me though :)

fairyhedgehog said...I was actually very impressed with the cartoon. Being able to describe something so purely visual in a way that I could see it in my mind's eye struck me as very skilful. I just wish he had either not gone on for so long, or had had more of an interesting dénouement.

ril said...He does seem reluctant to give a story an ending. Perhaps he doesn't want to disappoint anyone? Or he just can't decide.

Evil Editor said...I thought the denouement summed up the theme that was embedded in the psychoanalysis of the mouse and cat. I did think it would have been better without the guillotine section, which was the one scene that didn't remind me of the cartoons I used to watch.

ril said...Yeah, maybe he's seen Itchy and Scratchy, too. He maybe did skirt the edge of taking it too far. I started thinking WTF at first, but after a couple of straight "re-tellings" he started to introduce some of the internal thoughts of the characters that we don't get in the show.

Evil Editor said...If you think he took the cartoon too far, wait'll you read the Architectures. At least those are short, and he takes them so far they become funny in the absurdity of it all.

sylvia said...Other than that one, I liked the stories I read - Something disturbing and strange and distant about each of them. You don't see many collections of short stories, I meant to look up his name to see if he was already famous before this was published. Missing Elaine was next and I really liked the feeling of her just slowly fading away without anyone ever paying enough attention to notice what was happening to her.

Dave F. said...The missing Elaine felt sad in a sterile sort of way.

sylvia said...I like the way he led us to gentle endings where things just happened or stopped happening and I was left feeling that nothing would change. Depressing though.

Evil Editor said...The Room in the attic has an ending. He finally gets the opportunity to see Isabel, and he leaves. Apparently feeling to see her would destroy their relationship, which is based on not seeing her?

ril said...Yes. In the end, perhaps that was the only possibly satisfactory ending..

Evil Editor said...I guess we've discussed this book that some of us read some of long enough. Get that next book early so the author doesn't think she showed up for nothing.

sylvia said...Have you read Martin Dressler?

Evil Editor said...Not I. This is the only book I've read by Millhauser.

ril said...No, this was the first Millhauser I read (some of). I guess this is winding up somewhat ambiguously... Not bad, not wholly satisfying either. Apt, perhaps.

sylvia said...I may get the novel and see what its like. Ril's right - now I feel like I shouldn't say goodbye but simply watch everyone drift away one by one.

Evil Editor said...Those who finish the book eventually are welcome to add comments to the chat in the future, preferably in the edited version at evileditor.net. Bye, all, see you nex

Robin S. said...AHHHHHH. Dammit. I missed it. We've been working on the house, prepping to sell, and I was outside all morning, then to the store for fixing-up crap, now sitting in a sort of coma, and all of a sudden it hit me. Book Chat. Dammit. I can't believe I missed it! Sorry, EE. I apologize. Plus I missed a good discussion.

Dammit.

Evil Editor said...Too bad. We could have used someone who'd actually read it.

Evil Editor said...I picked up a copy of Martin Dressler at Barnes & Noble today. I'll let you know.

Book Chat 24: Claudia Dain/The Courtesan's Secret

2010-02-20T20:31:00.000-08:00

fairyhedgehog said...I can't make the chat tonight (I have to go to bed at an unreasonably early hour because of my CFS/ME) but I did read the book and enjoy it. It's a long way from Georgette Heyer! Her books were never so racy. What struck me most was that I guessed who Louisa would end up with from early on but that in no way spoilt my pleasure in the book. I hope you all have a good chat and that others enjoyed the book too.

sylvia said...Like Fairyhedgehog, it seemed clear to me at the start that Louisa and Henry were meant for each other. But Henry was so likeable, I found that it didn't bother me as I thought it might. Rather, it was fun to cheer him on and hope that he didn't turn out to be a jerk (he didn't).

Claudia Dain said...I liked Henry a lot myself. He's turned into a favorite character of mine.

Dave F. said...I didn't think I'd enjoy "The Courtesan's Secret" but it was more like Dangerous Liaisons than than mere romance. It had some bite.

Robin S. said...I want to go on record - I am always for bite. Hi, Claudia.

Claudia Dain said...Dave, thank you. I agree with you completely. These books lean very hard in the Dan. Lia. direction.

Evil Editor said...So how many courtesan books are there now?

Claudia Dain said...EE, as of July 2010, there will be five full length courtesan novels and one novella.

Robin S. said...EE, have you read the series?

Evil Editor said...I've read only this one. So far.

Evil Editor said...So, in each book Sophia helps a woman get a man, but the main character is the woman and Sophia is a major supporting character?

Claudia Dain said...EE, each book (including the novella) has Sophia as the hub of the action. She is the spur for much of the action. The story is about the h/h finding each other; the plot is their love story. It's an unusual way to structure a romance novel, but I wanted to play with something a bit different.

Evil Editor said...She's like the star of a TV show that has different guest stars each week. Louisa is a great character. Will we like the other women Sophia helps just as much?

Claudia Dain said...EE, each heroine is different, so I'm not sure you'll like each one as much. I do! But what do I know? The one constant for each heroine is that she's not afraid to ask for what she wants---a message I am very intentionally promoting in each of the books of the series.

Evil Editor said...Amelia wants a Duke; she makes that clear and it's not even her book yet. Book 3 is hers, I assume?

Claudia Dain said...EE, yes, book 3--The Courtesan's Wager--is Amelia's book. Book 4--How to Dazzle a Duke--is Penelope's book. Penelope has a small part in Louisa's book, a bigger part in Amelia's book, then her own. Book 5--Daring a Duke--takes place at Penelope's wedding.

Evil Editor said...How to Dazzle a Duke sounds like it should have been Amelia's book. What, does everyone want a duke?

Robin S. said...Well, hell, EE, of course they do. I would have wanted a Duke if there'd been any around.

Dave F. said...Do they go after "Dukes" because there are so few "princes" and I will resist insulting the current British crop of Princes.

Claudia Dain said...Ah, but Dave, everyone knows that princes have no ready money. Why want a duke? Money, power, privilege. The same old reasons anyone wants to marry the Donald Trumps of the world.

Evil Editor said...Fix me up with a duke. Any duke will do.

Claudia Dain said...I should mention that in the July book, Daring a Duke, it's a man who asks Sophia for help in getting the woman he wants, a very fun twist that I enjoyed a lot.

Dave F. said...I think there are stories in the "savage" boys. Was that a hint about the next novel?

Claudia Dain said...Dave, the "savages" are in novels 1, 2, 3, a bit in 4, not at all in 5.

sylvia said...I was concerned when I realised this was the second in the series - I wasn't sure that it made sense. It took me some time to warm to Sophia which I think would have been faster if I'd read the Courtesan's Daughter first. But the book worked fine as a standalone.

Claudia Dain said...Sylvia, I'm glad you warmed to Sophia eventually. I adore her, so I'm no judge. She's a very complex character with a long and tangled backstory. First and foremost, she's a survivor. Second and equally important, she's a fighter for the weak and disadvantaged--in this culture: women. For those two reasons alone, I'll love her till I die.

Robin S. said...Hmmm. That does sound good - does Sophia ever get who she wants - permanently, you know?

Claudia Dain said...Robin, Sophia's story has yet to be written! But I have great plans for her.

Robin S. said...Oooh, good! Glad to know that about Sophia. And I like the idea of empowering the powerless.

Dave F. said...I can't write all that internal dialog and thought. I wish I could.

Claudia Dain said...Dave, thank you again. I confess to absolutely having the time of my life writing these books. The difference between what the characters think and what they say is the soil for a lot of humorous situations.

sylvia said...In terms of message: I liked how it was made very clear that Henry was intrigued by Louisa because she was interesting, rather than despite her "flaws".

Claudia Dain said...Yes, I liked that Henry loved Louisa in spite of her flaws and that he wasn't intimidated by her. I also liked that he was the mushy romantic of the pair.

Evil Editor said...So to write a regency romance, you have to set it during this period. And I take it it's largely about the society and its rules and how they affect relationships. But do you have to alter your writing style? This style seems appropriate for this type of book. Is it your usual style, or is it different from what you use when writing a contemporary romance?

Claudia Dain said...EE, oh I definitely altered my writing style for this setting. These books are nothing like my medievals in tone or overall voice. However, I like to play with writing, like to be challenged, so this voice is a fun fit for me.

Dave F. said...I like the setting in London on that year it lends itself to the comedy of manners that works so well for lovers to miss and then meet each other.

Claudia Dain said...Dave, such a great point. I kept thinking I'd move the action to a country estate, but just couldn't make myself give up all the social action of a Season in Town. I have the floor plans of all their individual estates!! And no chance to use any of that yet. LOL Ah, well.

sylvia said...Is Daring a Duke already complete?

Claudia Dain said...Yes, Daring a Duke is complete and will be out July 2010.

Claudia Dain said...Nobody's asked me, but I don't plan out the books in the series. I just start writing and interesting characters pop up. When Louisa and Amelia showed up in Sophia's white salon in book 1, they grabbed me and I wrote Louisa's book practically in a dream state--she was so powerfully realized as a character for me that the book nearly wrote itself. In that way, I don't create secondary characters so that I can write future books about them; I write a book, characters show up, and then if they grab me they get their own book. Lots more characters than books to go around.

Robin S. said...I like that idea about the characters growing organically. Claudia, Hope you don't mind my asking, but how did you get your start, writing novels? Was it hard breaking in?

Claudia Dain said...Hard! Oh, so hard. My first book came out ten years ago; it was hard then and it's still hard. If there's an easy way to get published, I wish someone would tell me about it.

Robin S. said...Shoot, Claudia - I was hoping you had the secret to this publishing thing! (Kidding.) You write really well- I admire a good story, well told.

Claudia Dain said...Robin, thank you so much!

Dave F. said...I liked the scenes in the opera house because I've been to a few of those awfully staged and poorly sung operas. Who cares what's on stage if the audience provides alternative entertainment.

Evil Editor said...I thought they were going to strip down and go at it in the opera house.

Claudia Dain said...Dave, you should hunt down a copy of the anthology PRIVATE PLACES; the entire novella of mine takes place in an opera house in the Georgian Age--the night Sophia meets the Earl of Dalby, her future husband. We also meet the Duke of Aldreth--Amelia's father as a young man.

Dave F. said...There's a few arias that would improve with bare buns. (sorry, I couldn't resist.)

sylvia said...Regarding the Opera House...I had no idea that Regency Romances could be so racy! I thought it would be more Jane Austen-ish, to be honest.

Claudia Dain said...Oh, Sylvia, I'm sorry if I shocked you! My books are very mild compared to most. But as to the general raciness of Regency London, I picked the year 1802 for this reason--we weren't actually in the Regency yet, and it was still very wild and woolly Georgian. One of the tensions in the books is the difference in perspective between the characters Sophia's age and those of the heroines--different social mores for each. By the 1830s things had really settled down.

sylvia said...It's OK, I wasn't shocked - just surprised! I've never paid much attention to Regency Romance and had made a number of broad assumptions about the genre. :)

Dave F. said...I enjoyed the verbal back and forth. I'm not sure I wanted to read heaving bosoms and pulsing rods and an explicit (what can I say that isn't rude?)

Claudia Dain said...Dave, I prefer reading about the verbal skirmishes more than heaving bosoms as well--I find it more entertaining and more stimulating (no pun intended--though it does fit!).

Whirlochre said...Sorry to butt in without having read the book, followed the comments — or even relied on myself to be suitably dressed, but (picking up from the last few lucid drops) at what point do the characters begin to run away with things (Claudia, All)? If we've moved on to another topic by the time I've typed this out, fine by me.

Claudia Dain said...Whirl, that's a tough one to answer. I like to think that all my characters are real, but some characters just have the sort of personalities that leap up and grab me. If they do, then I want to write their book. If they don't, then they fade away for me. It's like being at a party--some people you want to spend more time with and some you don't. It's not that they're not all nice people, but not everyone grabs you.

Evil Editor said...Though in fact, they're not all nice people.

Robin S. said...I like that party analogy - explains a lot about why some parts of a novel are easier to write - they flow.

Claudia Dain said...Robin, someone very famous (can't remember who) said about writing, "Skip the boring parts." It's good advice. If, as the writer, you find the scene boring, then don't bother to write it. It makes writing a whole lot easier when you're only writing the stuff you like.

Whirlochre said...Ok — continuing the party analogy...When you're grabbed, do you listen, solely? And if you wish to elicit information, how do you force the issue without having your guest turn away?

Claudia Dain said...Whirl, I'm not sure what you're asking. Could you rephrase?

Evil Editor said...I never know what Whirl's talking about.

Whirlochre said...Ouch! That makes my butt smarter than yours, you fiend! I suppose it's about characters leading you in a direction that's unresolvable. Fiction resolves in a way life doesn't, and sometimes you have to step in, a la heavy hand, which always seems to me kind of obvious when I do this as a writer. Apologies for being opaque.

Claudia Dain said...Whirl, ah okay. So far, my characters have never led in a direction that was unresolvable, but that may be because as the author I'm not set on resolving =everything.= For example, in Louisa's book, her relationship with her father is not resolved, and will never be resolved. He was a lousy father (and a lousy human being) and he will remain so. That relationship is not going to magically heal.

Evil Editor said...Have her kill him. She can frame the Indians.

Claudia Dain said...But Louisa isn't a killer. She doesn't have the heart for it. Now Sophia on the other hand...

sylvia said...Yes, Sophia is much more believable as a murderess than Louisa!

Robin S. said...I'm not Claudia (big surprise) but Whirl, I see what you mean. Some characters simply are difficult, and they still need to be there. I sometimes think the more difficult ones are being difficult for a reason - you haven't gotten all you're gonna get out of them, yet. BTW, I think that author was Elmore Leonard, Claudia, wasn't it?

Claudia Dain said...Honestly, I can't remember who said not to write the boring parts. It could certainly be Elmore Leonard, but I couldn't swear to it.

Evil Editor said...I think there was an error on page 256, next to last paragraph, which I mention on the off chance you aren't aware of it and because they might let you change it in the many future printings to come.

Robin S. said...EE, you are an editor to the bone, son.

Evil Editor said...Just making my play to become Claudia's editor.

Robin S. said...As long as you can still be my editor, too.

Claudia Dain said...EE, thank you!! I will definitely bring that to their attention. You never know--it could get fixed. Though I don't want to bet the house on that.

Dave F. said...BTW - is "Ton" a Regency or Georgian substitution for "Town"...

Claudia Dain said...Ton is an abbreviation, sort of a slurring, of the top ten thousand---the upper upper reaches of British society.

Evil Editor said...I've run into Ton in many books, but there were a couple terms in here I didn't know. One was for being drunk.

Dave F. said..."Foxed" is slang for drunk.

Claudia Dain said...Cup-shot is another one for being drunk. I love learning new expressions! One of the truly entertaining things about any age.

Whirlochre said...I always assumed 'foxed' implied 'to outwit'. Not come across it in the inebriated context. Makes you wonder how many such familiar expressions are not similarly "on the chimp" (and I'm proposing this one as a future runner, just for the sake of it).

Claudia Dain said...Whirl, only when it's phrased "out foxed" does it mean to outwit, to get the better of someone. It seems to me that the most energetic and fast-paced changes to language are related to being drunk, doesn't it? There's always a new way to say it!

Whirlochre said...Thanks for responding, Claudia — I've been the most spurious of operatives.

Dave F. said...Was Sophia just a courtesan or did she run a house if ill repute? I sensed there was more to her than just simply a courtesan.

Claudia Dain said...Dave, no. Sophia was strictly a courtesan and she wasn't one for very long, a couple of years.

Evil Editor said...Did Louisa have her pearls at the end?

Claudia Dain said...EE, great question. No, Louisa doesn't have her pearls; she has Henry instead. A very important distinction. Will she get her pearls? I'm sure she will. But having got (Brit phrasing) Henry, she doesn't want for anything more.

Evil Editor said...Wait a minute, is that Louisa on the cover? Because she's got her pearls. I think that was the courtesan's secret--SHE ended up with the pearls.

Robin S. said...This was great, visting with you, Claudia. If you're coming to the DC RWA thing this year, I'll cab over and say hi.

Claudia Dain said...Thank you all! I've had such a great time. Thanks for letting me come to your party! I hope you'll read and enjoy all the other books in the courtesan series. The list is on my website so you can determine the order. (Except I haven't put the July book up yet---oops.) Thanks again!

Whirlochre said...Thanks for hosting, EE. Goodnight all...

Evil Editor said...Night all. Order the next book before you forget.

Chris Eldin said...Anyone still here? Ahh, blog owner approval. damn. I wanted to come to this one.

Jeb said...Fairyhedgehog, I too am a Heyer fan (and have ME/CFS). I also missed the chat but it's because I was seduced by the women's hockey final. My favourite period expression for drunkenness is 'jug-bitten'. I didn't mind the book, although it didn't thrill me to the point where I'd seek out others. I found it reminiscent of Jo Beverly's 'Rogues' series, a couple of which I read on the insistance of my daughter. Those center on men finding the right woman and cover a wider geography (including the New World) than the Courtesan books, which center on women in London during the Season.
On the whole, I prefer the freer expression people indulge in when they don't think the author will be listening in. Plus people talk to her rather than discussing their own reactions to the book. But, since I almost never make it to the book discussions, don't let my opinion weigh with anyone. Back to the Olympics.

fairyhedgehog said...This was an interesting read. Thank you EE for hosting, Claudia Dain for writing the book and coming along to chat, and everyone else who joined in!
Oh, and nice to meet you, Jeb! I hope there'll be other chats that we can both make!
I can see your point about authors joining in chats but I feel rather differently about it. I like author chats because there's something special about being able to ask an author what they were thinking when they wrote something. People may feel less able to make negative comments (or not, depending on the person!) but for me it's worth it to be able to hear from the person who created the book. Thinking about it, you never know when an author might come on something you've said about their work. That's a bit of a sobering thought!

stacy said...My take is that you can still critique the book. I think Dave critiqued the book in a polite manner that spurred conversation. That's good practice in any forum. Sorry I had to miss this chat. Looks like a good one.

Book Chat 23: Lisa Mannetti/The Gentling Box

2010-01-21T17:58:00.000-08:00

January, 2010

Dave F. said...The Gentling Box is not what I expected.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Dave, what were you expecting?

Dave F. said...Maybe more paranormal and less horror. I know that doesn't sound logical but it's like you don't look at all like your voice sounded.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Dave, I'm not sure what you mean...

sylvia said...It was somehow not at all what I expected either. I somehow hadn't realised it was horror fantasy (is that a genre?)

Lisa_Mannetti said...I never thought of it as horror fantasy...more like literary horror, but that's an interesting take.

Robin S. said...I never thought about the genre of literary horror until recently, and I like it.

Evil Editor said...The best literary horror comes from small presses.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Yes, it's mostly small presses putting out literary horror.

Xiexie said...I agree with the horror fantasy moniker.

Robin S. said...To me, the best literary horror (and I do count some of Stephen King here) is introspective, at least in places. That's what I liked about yours as well. Lisa.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Thanks, Robin...I really despise books that are "popcorn" in any genre--getting inside the character is key for me--in films, too.

sylvia said...That was good in a way though, because I shared Imre's sense of disbelief.

Lisa_Mannetti said...I'm glad you identified with Imre.

sylvia said...I guess I expected something more typically classic - gypsies and Dracula and evil nearby. Evil within us thus caught me unawares. I was pulled in from the start, hoping with Imre that sanity would prevail.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Oh, no, never typical...that wouldn't be any fun for me or for readers!

Dave F. said...I usually pass any novel that I read on to my relatives, mostly my mother who's in her late 80's. I don't think she will read this one.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Yeah, might be rough--although my mother read it as a ms before it was published and she loved it.

Evil Editor said...Anyeta: among the most horrible characters of all time. Which I mean in a good way.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Anyeta was a boat load of fun to write!

Evil Editor said...Those who would want to be friends with Anyeta, raise your hand . . . the one you didn't cut off.

Xiexie said...*Raises hand* I found Anyeta delightfully evil. She was truly despicable and sad too though.

Judy said...I loved Anyeta, EE. Her characterization was subtle, nuanced, yet terrifying.

Evil Editor said...Anyeta was terrifying, true, but she was also great in the sack.

Lisa_Mannetti said...I loved Anyeta, too, Judy...she's so cunning and clever and so single-minded at the same time. Classic sociopath!

Dave F. said...It's a throwback to the lurid novels of Poe and that other guy... Florid in style and with a plot that has lots of ill-at-ease images. But that's what horror is, in a literary sense.

Lisa_Mannetti said...That's an interesting perspective, Dave. Though I'd amend it slightly and say literary horror can be very quiet, too--as in the Turn of the Screw or anything (practically) by Peter Straub or someone like Robert Dunbar.

Dave F. said...I can't read Peter Straub. I just don't have the patience. That being said, I think GHOST STORY is a great scary movie.

Evil Editor said...I kept thinking of the narrator as female for several chapters. It's a 1st person/female author thing. Got over it.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Yes, EE, I know what you mean! I really love writing from a male perspective--it's even easier to become the character most of the time...and if you're going to write about horrific stuff, slipping into a male p.o.v. is the least difficult thing...

sylvia said...I was somewhat concerned at the start when I saw that it was a male narrator written by a woman. But it was fine, from my point of view. (But then, I've noticed that I have a much greater tolerance for men written by women than women written by men. Funny that.)

Dave F. said...I noticed that too. Imre is not a manly man. He's quite different than that. And they seem to be drawn to disaster and ugliness. More than once I thought "Why don't they just leave Romania" but of course, that's the nature of tragedy -- the protagonist can't help but fall.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Yes, Dave...tragedy can't be adventitious--and story tellers are always backed up against the wall at some point plotwise--if the hero(s) do the logical thing, the story ends...LOL

sylvia said...It was darkly disturbing and the incest as a weapon was difficult to read.

Evil Editor said...You'd think Imre would tell Anyeta, hey, that's your daughter and your granddaughter. Pick on someone else.

Lisa_Mannetti said...EE, yes but if Anyeta picked on someone else, the stakes would be a lot lower for Imre...

sylvia said...I took it that Anyeta was simply evil. Her daughter (and granddaughter) were easy victims because she had access to them and a position of trust (the latter one stolen). Imre was a target because he was affected by what she did to her daughter. She didn't care about Mimi but she was certainly going to take advantage of anyone who did.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Exactly Sylvia...remind me to consult you as a preliminary reader for my next book!

Dave F. said...I had trouble with the hallucinations until I figured out what was happening and why and then every time I got the "huh?" feeling, I figured it was another vision/hallucination or dream. My understanding is that Imre now has the power of the "hand of death" as owner of the box and that Anyeta and Mimi died together.

sylvia said...And my silly question of the month is whether gentling boxes (for horses) existed in reality?

Dave F. said...I seriously hope no one ever did that to a horse. As much as I think they are big, smelly beasts, my brother just lost a magnificent stallion. It's death made me tear up.

Lisa_Mannetti said...S, I'm going to let you in a big secret: no, gentling boxes never existed--it's one of the great thrills in my life that readers (and I include even savvy ones like agents here) can't tell if it's real or not.

Dave F. said...a cheer from me!

sylvia said...I really wasn't sure.

Robin S. said...Well, it seemed like something that did exist, so kudos to you for that! I thought maybe it had been some Dark Ages torture device, for animals or humans.

Dave F. said...By the way, when I reached that chapter of Imre with his father and the horses, I knew that someone had to die that way. After that, I was along for the ride.

Evil Editor said...The gentling of people didn't involve an actual box, right? Is the copper box the gentling box of the title?

Lisa_Mannetti said...Well, not to confuse boxes, it is referential to the copper box, but the tools are carried in a special sort of kit which Imre knows (starting from his childhood) as a gentling box...

Robin S. said...What gave you the idea for your novel, Lisa? Were you always interested in horror?

Kathryn Magendie said...Lisa, I don't generally read this genre, but I could very much appreciate the beauty in the writing, the character development - you do have a gift!
What are you doing now?

Lisa_Mannetti said...Hey Kat! Thanks for coming by and thank you for the compliment!

Evil Editor said...Did Mimi cut off her arm and then the healing power of the hand was used, or was that a hallucination?

Lisa_Mannetti said...No, Mimi definitely cut her arm off, EE...

Evil Editor said...Did she have one arm the rest of the book?

Lisa_Mannetti said...No, EE, Mimi definitely has two arms--she uses the power when she claims the hand to heal herself.

Evil Editor said...Okay. I figured a missing arm would have led to several remarks, so I assumed she had two again.

sylvia said...Funny, I never doubted that she really cut her arm off. Thinking about it, it's because at that point, Imre was still looking for rational explanations for everything and we didn't yet know that he was seeing a vision for his old flame (I've forgotten her name, Zahara?). So I trusted his judgement that it was real, because he was so convinced it couldn't be happening.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Yes, Sylvia, that's correct.

Dave F. said...That two magic things were involved is almost a necessity. It gave the story complexity. Anyeta would always have been a witch and the box was the power that corrupts beyond all reason. The power to see the future. Wotan gave up an eye, ya know.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Well, I like complexity in stories and I like combining things...so that said we wind up here with the hand of the dead (which was actually a wiccan superstition for lighting one's way in a grave yard, though it was known among gypsies, too) and the gentling.

Dave F. said...The people who claimed the "hand of the dead" all had a scar on their forearms. It is the sign of the box.

Kathryn Magendie said...Does your work give you nightmares? or did the nightmares give you your work or none of above?

Lisa_Mannetti said...Kat, I think it works both ways, though when I dream about my work it's not usually a nightmare--it's more like a peak into the story. That said, I did have a scary gypsy dream after I finished wherein I was held down captive or something--I figured it was just revenge by a group that was going to be pissed off at me...LOL

Dave F. said...I had very little reference to the countryside they lived in. After a chapter or so, I just gave up and envisioned it as the Bram Stoker Transylvanian visions and let it go at that. In the end, I didn't need anything more than that.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Dave, I've visited a lot of places, but never been to Romania or Hungary beyond a few seaport towns...research was my key...I love doing it anyhow.

Dave F. said...It is convincingly gypsy. You did a good job with that part of the story.

sylvia said...How did you end up writing about gypsies rather than random witches or fairies or beings from another planet?

Robin S. said...True- gypsies are an interesting departure from the norm.

Lisa_Mannetti said...I did tons of research on the language, etc...the only other thing really fudged is the caravan, which is probably a little larger than it would be in reality.

sylvia said...The caravans actually morphed into shacks in my mind and then I had to give myself a mental shake when it became important that they were caravans again.
It came across that Anyeta was always evil - I suppose because Imre from the start wanted to stay away. But only at the end did I think that she embodied the evil having taken the hand, it wasn't really her. On the other hand, she gave up her secrets, allowing Mimi and the rest to be trapped. Mimi never did the same although she was under the same thrall.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Always had a thing for gypsies, Syl..for one thing, there were all those old Lon Chaney movies with Maria Ouspenskya (sp?) and for another, my mother sort of scared me by telling me not to go to a certain street and a certain house because gypsies lived there...to this day, it never dawned on me before that 'gypsies' might have been a euphemism for something else...LOL...but I do remember whenever we chanced to drive past the house, there were ragged curtains and it always scared me. At the same time, I think my mother (and by extension, me) liked gypsies--she dressed me up as one for Halloween about 3 years running! (I hardly every outgrew clothes, I'm still only 5 feet tall)

Evil Editor said...You're probably not the shortest person here.

Robin S. said...I measure in at 5'0 myself, Lisa. We're small but mighty. Sylvia is tiny, too.

sylvia said...(I usually claim I'm 5'0 but as I've stood next to Robin, I suppose I have to admit that I'm a quarter inch under. *sigh*)

Xiexie said...Also, all these 5' ppls, you'll make me feel like a giant. I'm 6'2"ish.

Lisa_Mannetti said...X, tall people are big in my book...*(what a wretched pun) LOL

Evil Editor said...What would have had to happen for Anyeta to move out of Mimi and into Lenore?

sylvia said...Lenore would have had to take the hand (i.e. cut hers off and claim the power)

Dave F. said...No, Sylvia, Imre did that. He took the power of the hand. Mimi had to die for Anyeta to move out of her body. Somehow, the gentling device prevents that. At the end, Imre has all the power and it might corrupt him, might not. Anyeta was a true witch capable of possessing others.

sylvia said...Right but for Anyeta to take Lenore, Lenore would have had to take the hand as well, no?

Dave F. said...But I got the impression that Mimi wasn't strong enough to hold off Anyeta for too long. Eventually the old witch would subsume or (whatever) her mind and then Lenore would be vulnerable.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Yes, Dave...Lenore recognizes that she won't be able to fend off Anyeta and that Lenore (certainly one of the most trusting characters in the book) will definitely jump on the copper box bandwagon!

Evil Editor said...If they had thrown the copper box into Mt. Doom, would that have made Lenore safe? Of course that would have taken immense will power.

Lisa_Mannetti said...I'm not sure EE...somehow I don't think they could throw it away...it's partly compulsion (even without the lure of the hand itself and its mind-bending games, partly like being a murder who wants to keep the evidence--but also hide it (sometimes from fear that they will lose control over the evidence, sometimes from wanting reminders and trophies) and partly being drawn to the hand's powers...Anyeta, of course, was very creative in that department...but I'm not sure it can be thrown away...unless it's passed on, the person who claims it has all that eternity to face..and that's a hell of a long time....LOL

sylvia said...You'd have to cut off the arm that was holding the box so everything fell in at once.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Mimi is trying to avoid eternal torment--lying awake and aware forever--that's for sure...and to do everything to keep herself (and Imre) away from Lenore...I personally don't think Imre will be corrupted (though it might make a great sequel)....

Judy said...Sequel! Will there be one?

Lisa_Mannetti said...Judy,I hadn't really considered it, but Dave sort of gave me a great idea...so, you never know!

Dave F. said...What's the idea if you wish to share?

Lisa_Mannetti said...Imre as corrupted by the hand of the dead...who knows, might get a nifty little novella out of it, would need more ideas for a whole book.

Evil Editor said...Dave will give you more ideas. He's got a million of 'em.

Dave F. said...A Prospero on an island with his good and bad angels. A King Lear who lost it all (ala Kurasawa's RAN). He is currently Othello (in a sense). Possibly a MacBeth. That power to see the future through the eyes of the dead is quite possibly unresistible.

Evil Editor said...See?

Robin S. said...Ha!

Kathryn Magendie said...Just a comment: this is a wonderful idea! :-) Have never been to a chat like this before!

Evil Editor said...We'll expect you to become a regular now, Kat. There's a link to the schedule in the sidebar.

Kathryn Magendie said...Thank you EE- I am going to look for that schedule!

sylvia said...(I love these book chats. I've started describing them to people when they question the benefits of "wasting time online")

Robin S. said...(I love 'em too, Sylvia. I think I'm addicted to 'em. EE, don't go anywhere, please.)

Lisa_Mannetti said...Yes, Sylvia, I love writers book chats, too...try writers chat room if you haven't already...

Evil Editor said...Do you now have an agent? Will you submit your next novel to DarkHart?

Lisa_Mannetti said...No agent now; they are all waiting to jump on the next book, EE...so must get it done! Probably won't submit to DarkHart--I'd like to try for a larger venue if I can.

sylvia said...Isn't pretty rare these days to go straight to a publisher without an agent? Can you talk about how that came about? It certainly has worked out well!

Lisa_Mannetti said...Small press is your answer to the "I don't have an agent" syndrome...anyhow, most agents don't even want to deal with small presses (not enough money). I did have an agent (a couple in fact) who was very well known. The first one, told me to junk the book. The second one sent it around to the New York houses--lots of editors loved it, but felt it wasn't going to go anywhere because (perennial excuse) the market was crappy....I sometimes wonder if either agent or any of the editors know it won the Stoker...talk about vindication--whew!

sylvia said...I bet you feel vindicated! Did the small press do the marketing or did you or a combination?

Lisa_Mannetti said...I did about 90% of the marketing, Sylvia...which brings me back to a sudden recall that it made it through the editorial round at one of the big houses, but the marketing people gave it the chop. LOL I forget which publisher it was, though.

sylvia said...I suspect the marketing issue is the incest conflict, it's such a hot-button subject.

Robin S. said...Wow, Lisa. That Marketing Dept. story is crummy. But you ended up fine, so there!

Judy said...What are you working on now?

Evil Editor said...According to the about the author page, she's working on The Everest Hauntings, which I assume is about an abominable snowman.

Lisa_Mannetti said...Judy, the next book is tentatively titled THE EVEREST HAUNTINGS but no abominable snowmen (that thought never crossed my mind). It's about a hypnotherapist who (is afraid of heights, btw) who plans to be the first person to climb Everest using self-hypnosis. Her goal is to come back and get on the very lucrative lecture circuit..

Evil Editor said...I'm planning to be the first person to blog from the top of Everest. Just waiting till I have an Ipad.

Kathryn Magendie said...I will tell you all that Lisa is such a cool woman- met her at the Pen to Press Writer's Conference in New Orleans - she's full of energy and ideas and talent and is just a really nice person, to boot.

Dave F. said...How do you write? anytime you can get? Mornings? away form everything? In the middle of everything?

Lisa_Mannetti said...Thank you, Kat! Dave, when I'm on track (having been thrown from same recently due to a bunch of kidney stone attacks and nasty, unpleasant surgeries) I write every day. My day job is in the evenings, (usually) I read tarot cards professionally...I was teaching at Mount Saint Mary and also at SUNY New Paltz, but gave it up when I had to care for my mother...also there was no time to write while teaching--not with 300 papers to grade every semester!

Judy said...What do you feel is the difference between "literary horror" and "commercial horror"?

Lisa_Mannetti said...For me the difference is more a degree of quality...I forget who said it here, but I'd certainly count Stephen King as literary--and no one can argue with his financial mega-success. I tend to think of "commercial" fiction (in any genre) as stuff that's cobbled together for no other purpose but to make money...the books and stories are shallow--there aren't going to be reverberations or echoes--interestingly, there's a lot of true crime that's written as well as what I'd call literary fiction...starting with Truman Capote's IN COLD BLOOD, of course.

Evil Editor said...I think Lisa's been more than generous with her time. We should let her go.

Lisa_Mannetti said...I would like to let you all know that in just a few weeks, my macabre gag book, 51 Fiendish Ways to Leave your Lover will be out from Bad Moon Books. Glenn Chadbourne did the illustrations!

Evil Editor said...Tell us one of the 51.

sylvia said...Yeah, what's a random one of the 51 sounds like a good last question :)

Lisa_Mannetti said...Buy her (your soon to be ex-lover) a cemetery plot as her big gift for Valentine's Day...
or
Use his beloved retriever as a living voodoo dog...
You get the idea...

Judy said...LOL!

Lisa_Mannetti said...Glenn's illos really make it pop...for anyone who doesn't know his work, check Doug Cleggt's ISIS and Stephen King's SECRETARY OF DREAMS, for starters...

Evil Editor said...It sounds like a perfect Valentine's Day gift.

Lisa_Mannetti said...I'm hoping BAD MOON gets it out in time for Valentine's Day... they should...it's very close to done--nothing left but the back cover. (Which may be done, for all I know, even as we speak). I don't have the ISBN memorized, but it should show up fairly soon on the Bad Moon Books site and of course Amazon, etc...

sylvia said...I'll definitely keep an eye out for it!

Lisa_Mannetti said...Well, thank you all and happy reading, happy writing!!

Book Chat 22: Charles Burns/Black Hole

2009-12-22T21:01:00.000-08:00

December, 2009

Evil Editor said...A few thoughts while I wait for those who showed up and left because I was late arriving: Those who don't respect graphic novels might feel that way because they often have superheroes, and thus remind them of comic books, which they also don't respect. For you I would recommend checking out Persepolis, a graphic novel by an Iranian woman which was also made into a film not too long ago. Also, City of Glass, a graphic novel adaptation of a novel by Paul Auster, who wrote our chat book from last summer, Man in the Dark. And Epileptic, about a kid growing up with an epileptic sibling. Beyond that, it could be argued that what graphic novels lack from a literary standpoint they make up for with art. You know what they say about a picture.

Dave F. said...I read PERSEPOLIS, it is a brilliant statement on life in Iran. I haven't read CITY OF GLASS.

sylvia said...I loved Persepolis, it totally changed my view of graphic novels. Which means I probably need to get City of Glass.

Evil Editor said...Descriptions of characters are often lame. She had brown hair and blue eyes and her mouth was as pouty as a crab on downers. Wouldn't you rather see the character sometimes? Not necessarily if it's an artist's rendering of the author's story, but if the artist IS the author, why not get the author's take?

Robin S. said...Without wanting to be contrary, I'd rather draw my own pictures and my own conclusions on what things look like. Very few movies make me happy once I've read the novel it was made from. If I see the movie first, fine. If not...

Evil Editor said... So, a graphic novel made from a novel you've read wouldn't please you, but a graphic novel made from scratch shouldn't displease you any more than a movie whose screenplay you hadn't read.

Robin S. said...You've got a point, EE. OK. I'm simply prejudiced.

stacy said...So maybe your imagination is too strong for graphic novels, Robin. I'm kind of a recent convert to graphic novels and comic books myself. My former roommate, D, is a HUGE collector, and I'll never forget the morning he spent trying to convince me that graphic novels and comic books are every bit as literary and global-reaching as novels. I rolled my eyes. But once I realized he was right, I said so.

Robin S. said...Stacy, Which novel did you read that turned you from the dark side to liking graphic novels?

stacy said...I think it might have been Fun Home by Allison something-or-other. It was a memoir told in graphic novel form, and it was much more meaty than I anticipated. I guess I expected some sappy memoir about growing up as an undertaker's daughter, and instead she told this godawful and great story about her father and how his being a closeted gay man affected her as a lesbian. I think the graphic novel form was a great way for her to express what she meant without having to get too wordy.

Robin S. said...Stacy, See - that's the thing. I expect a graphic novel NOT to deal with issues like the one you described. Also, I think I worry that attention spans in general have suck-dropped off, and fewer people want to spend the intellectual capital necessary for immersion in a traditionally written novel.

stacy said...I get what you're saying, Robin, but I think what's happening is that people are discovering that graphic novels are as good as "real" novels - it's just that the story's told in a different way. Yes, they're "easier" in terms of reading, but the thematic stuff is pretty much the same. Watchmen gives PLENTY of food for thought.

Evil Editor said... I got turned on to them when Evil Jr. asked for a couple for Christmas a year or two ago. I read them and liked them. Those were called Y: the Last Man and David Boring.

Dave F. said... Amazon keeps shoving "Y" at me and I am not sure I want to read it. Of course I like "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac".

Evil Editor said...Y is well worth it. There are now numerous sequels. (which I can't vouch for)

Robin S. said... I think EE Jr is about Robin Jr's age, right? Early 20s? Robin Jr likes them as well. And she reads other novels voraciously - right now she's rereading Slaughterhouse Five, so I guess my takeaway - with you and Stacy liking them as well, is that maybe I need to thaw out a bit, and read with a more open mind.

stacy said...I've also read most of the Absolute Watchman (I moved before I could finish it) and some of Sandman - something I plan to collect. So what did you all think of Black Hole?

Dave F. said...This book was a surprise for me in that I thought I was going to hate it even while part way through. Then I began to see the story and understand what Burns was driving at. I wasn't fond of the artistic style here. He's a brilliant artist and the detail is great, but all the characters were so similar. Of course, that might have been deliberate. Many times the style of drawing in a graphic novel will put off part of the audience.

Evil Editor said...I admit I had some trouble telling a couple characters apart, as they were drawn somewhat similarly.

Dave F. said... I think Burns created his teens to look similar. It's part of the angst thing. All teens think they are unique and isolated and yet none of them are.

sylvia said...I think Dave is right in that the characters were drawn to be very similar - when he wanted to set someone apart, it worked. And yet, a few times, I paged back to work out who was who and I think it was intentional. It's a "random teen."

Robin S. said...I read the comments on the novel on the back - Time, etc., and thought...hmmmm...maybe I'm missing out on something. I'm guessing this is well done, but I keep seeing Mary Worth and Batman, mixed.

stacy said...I had to be converted, too, Robin. I thought GNs and comic books were for geeky guys who dreamt of being superheroes (and many are), but in learning more about the Batman canon and the Spiderman canon, I'm finding writers like Stan Lee and . . . Frank Miller . . . to be every bit as good as Dickens. Just goes to show, I guess.

Dave F. said...It took me over half the story to figure out what was going on. The story is evocative of teen angst and isolation. They flee their homes and parents to live in the woods while they figure out what is "wrong"...And nothing is "wrong" that they can't grow out of. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of teen angst presented this way.

Sylvia said...I disagree with Dave in that I saw it a lot more wrong than what they could grow out of. Tails and fur and mouths....

Dave F. said...This is an excellent portrayal of the isolation and doubts that all teens have. Think about Keith's speech across a few of the first pages: I was looking at a hole… a black hole and as I looked, the hole opened up… and I could feel myself falling forward, tumbling down into nothingness. For a while I was just floating… I was in this totally black place. It was kind of spacey but it felt nice… nice and safe. Each character reverberates that sentiment. And I see parallels to the AIDS epidemic as both the deformities in BLACK HOLE and AIDS are sexually transmitted.

Evil Editor said...What was interesting about Black Hole was that it's set up like a novel. Moving from chapter to chapter you also move to a different character's POV. Others I've read were either omniscient or stuck with one character.

stacy said...Did you like that aspect of it, EE? Or did it make it confusing since some of the characters were drawn similarly?

Evil Editor said...It made it a bit confusing, but I liked it nonetheless. Another thing that led to confusion was the large number of flashbacks and dreams, which were shown by using squiggly lines around the panel instead of straight ones. You had to be alert or you might miss it.

stacy said...That is one problem I have with graphic novels. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of the plot. I mean, obviously that problem can exist with novels, but in graphic novels I almost expect things to be more clear since it's drawn.

Dave F. said...I've seen dream sequences in graphic novels before and the "squiggly" lines were jarring. They maintained each panel's separation from the next panel. They isolated it. Instead of being a foggy blur, these flashbacks and dreams were isolating and lonely experiences.

Evil Editor said...In this novel, Stacy, there's a sexually transmitted disease that affects everyone differently. Those who have "the bug" become outcasts.

stacy said...Ew. I can see how Dave saw parallels with the AIDS epidemic.

Dave F. said...I couldn't help but think of AIDS with part of the story like this:

It was like a horrible game of tag...It took a while, but they finally figured out it was some kind of new disease that only affected teenagers. They called it the "teen plague" or "the bug" and there were all kinds of unpredictable symptoms...For some it wasn't too bad - a few bumps, maybe an ugly rash...Others turned into monsters or grew new body parts...But the symptoms didn't matter...Once you were tagged, you were "it" forever.

This is about sexually coming of age. In the end, once you get the "bug" you are tagged forever. You are "it" forever. Sex changes everything.

stacy said...Sex DOES change everything, doesn't it?

Robin S. said...I have to say that a lot of what was written, I enjoyed. The tail between the legs part at the end...etc.

Dave F. said...By the way, many people think of high school as either ALL good or ALL bad with no ground in between. Those kids couldn't live with their parents after getting the "bug" but they could stay alone and isolated in the woods -- no emotional contact except with a few peers. Gee whiz if that isn't the story we hear about from kids in HS...

You don't understand.
You'll never understand.
I can't talk to my parents.
I can only talk to my girl/boy friend, my steady who knows me...
teen angst.

stacy said...That's true, Dave. But I do think high school tends to be a time of heightened emotions. That could account for it. The part with the woman with the tail doesn't sound very sexy, though.

Dave F. said...Trust me Stacy, a woman with a tail is sexy. (blush)

Evil Editor said...Surprisingly, the tail was very attractive. More so than most of the other Bug effects.

Sarah Laurenson said...But aren't tails supposed to be sexy? Demons got 'em. Vixens flirt with 'em.

stacy said...hah - Dave! I was thinking alligator tail or something, but I'm guessing you're thinking of a different kind. : )

Dave F. said...I would like to ask Burns if the manifestations of the disease (like the tail and the shedding skin) was deliberately metaphorical. If that's was so, it's a subtle point.

sylvia said...Stacy: The tail was complicated. Various effects of the illness were given as potentially sexy but only the tail was drawn to be sexy. Is that true for you all?

Robin S. said...Yep, Sylvia - the tail was the only one that seemed sexy to me at all. It was even drawn beautifully, not ugly like the others.

stacy said...I guess I'll have to eat my words about this tail thing.

sylvia said...I expected to like the book and flicked through it and then gave it to my (15-year-old) son. So when I started reading it, my main reaction was ohshitmaybenot - I don't think he minded but I'm not sure it was a good book to receive from your mom. So, I started off with a bias of "please be less adult"

stacy said...Okay, I'll refrain from lending my future copy to either of my nieces.

Evil Editor said...Interesting that the bug caused horrible deformities and some fairly unnoticeable changes, and even that sexy tail. The extra mouth on the neck. It looked like a female sex organ. So did the drawings at the beginning of the chapters. Or was that just MY imagination?

sylvia said...There were lots of naked bits in general. I didn't take the book out of the house because I wouldn't have liked someone looking over my shoulder ;) But yes - the mouth (and the opening pages) were all clearly vulvas to me - I thought it was probably just me being warped though

Dave F. said...But all life enters the world through a vagina, through that opening. And guess what, for at least half the world (the men, mostly) it remains a black hole of ignorance all their lives.

Evil Editor said...Also, the cut on the girl's foot near the beginning. Is that where the title comes from?

sylvia said...Yeah, the mouth on the foot was the same shape. I found it disconcerting but I can see that as a black hole of ignorance, it would be compelling. It didn't put me off as a reader (only as a mother, etc)

Dave F. said...Floating in the water staring up at the black, night sky is a metaphorical black hole.

Robin S. said...Yeah, EE, I agree. The creature's slit open place, and other things, were very vaginal. I'll check Persepolis, but I think I might be better off starting out with Neil Gaiman. The reason is that I LOVED The Graveyard book, and so, I'll be more open to giving his graphic novels a thoughtful read.

Dave F. said...This could be a good book for teenagers if they weren't such inarticulate lumps around their parents and other adults.

stacy said...It's the hormones, Dave. They outnumber the brain cells at that age.

Dave F. said...And whatever changes are going on in their bodies will pass. They aren't the first or the last.

Evil Editor said...It could send teens the message not to make those who are different outcasts.

sylvia said...I found the detail of the book to be ... detailed but not pretty. I presume that's intentional. The acne, the teeth. They hurt. Uh oh, is the author here? They were all well drawn just not pleasantly so.

stacy said...No, the author isn't here, thank God, because EE was LATE.

Robin S. said...I thought the tail idea was cool. I remember reading and feeling bad for the ones who had ugly manifestations of this.

sylvia said...Robin: Persepolis. Honestly. I've read a few before, Neil Gaiman, and stuff that Connor got as presents and it was all OK and then I read that and thought - yeah, I get it. I really would like to read the Sandman series but I can never find the starting books when I'm at the bookstore.

stacy said...I want to read Persepolis. And the City of Glass. BTW, I've ordered the book for the next book chat. So at least when I'm running my mouth there will be a better chance I'll know what the hell I'm talking about.

Robin S. said...I do think the teen angst with physicality attached in the form of disfigurement, was a good take on what teens experience. Funny, though, I remember reading that there were no 'teenagers' - ie - young-old kids, until after the turn of the 20th century. Before that they were young adults with big responsibilities and no pity if they angsted around.

sylvia said...I suspect that I didn't actually get the point of the story.

Dave F. said...When I was deep in the "what the hell is this book" funk, I called up a friend who reads all of these and has the walls of his house like with graphic novels. He said that issue 12 of the serialized version has a quote that didn't make it into the book version, partly because it contradicts, partly because it was merely cover art. Take it with a grain of salt:

It's like tryin' to explain sex to a nun - there's no way you'd ever understand it unless you lived it. I was there, okay? Half my fuckin' friends died out there, man. I never dreamed I'd get out of that shit-hole...but one day I notice the stuff on my face is starting to heal and a couple of months later, I'm totally fuckin' clean...out walking around with all the normal assholes.

Evil Editor said...The way the faces are obscured on the front and back cover may fit in with the same topic.

stacy said...So maybe the deformities were physical manifestations of what teens feel?

Dave F. said...Bingo! Stacy got it.

stacy said...Hah! I feel like I just won a round of Jeopardy.

Evil Editor said...Did anyone remark on the fact that twelve people are shown on the inside front cover flap, and they all look kind of similar, and the same twelve are shown on the inside back cover after the bug has made each of them look unique?

Robin S. said...Oh hell. I didn't look at the inside of the back cover before you mentioned that. To be honest, I'd prefer looking the same to some of the individuality hanging out there. If I wanted to look different, I'd dye my hair or get colored contacts and be JUST fine, thanks. That said, I get the point. Also, Dave, does the quote you posted mean that everyone heals eventually? Hope so!

Evil Editor said...Only the ones who survived.

Dave F. said...Not everyone survives or heals from growing up.

sylvia said...It was like a horrible game of tag It was the moralism that got to me in the end - bear in mind I was swayed throughout by the fact that I'd given it to my son to read (I've given him so much to read, I don't think any one book is going to be a big issue, but it annoyed me) so I was reading it with a much more judgmental tone of view.

Evil Editor said...I read every book judgmentally because I gave them all to you guys to read.

sylvia said...Clearly it's aimed at teenagers and I don't think it's a bad book for teenagers. It's just not one I wanted to be associated with giving to my teenager. Does that make sense?

Sarah Laurenson said...Perfect sense, Sylvia, but raises an interesting point about where you draw a line for the masses and for yourself personally.

Evil Editor said...Your teenager is probably thinking, My mom read this? Ew.

Sarah Laurenson said...Yeah. What EE said. ;-)

sylvia said...LOL, yes, I'm sure that's exactly what he thought. He usually rushes to discuss books with me but this one, not so much ;)

stacy said...I can see why you would find some of it objectionable, Sylvia, based on what's been described here. But just think: In ten years he's going to remember you as the coolest mother on Earth for trusting him enough to "get" this book.

Dave F. said...I had to help a niece through 2 years of home-schooled HS and after assembling a whole pile of poetry and two Shakespeare plays, she informed me that my world outlook was too dark and I should lighten up...

Evil Editor said...I've been meaning to tell you that too, Dave.

stacy said...Did she even read the material? Everyone knows what a hoot Shakespeare was.

Dave F. said...She read all of it because I wrote up essay questions and graded the answers. All that stuff has to be written down for Home Schoolers. I don't know how those women do it for 12 years. But I digress.

sylvia said...Sarah: thinking about this a bit more...I feel that I have undo influence so any morality plays I hand over have implicit approval. I'm not sure he even sees this anymore but I still react to it. So yeah, you could do a good split of books that are "good reads" and books I'd hand to my son to read.

stacy said...I think we all draw that line a bit. I know I do when it comes to my nieces.

Ahhh, I see what you mean, Sylvia. Maybe the author was commenting on how unhealthily we tend to view sex in relation to teens.

Robin S. said...Yeah. Me, too on the line drawing, One of the stories I had in the mag - my younger daughter asked for the link so she could read it and I said, ummmm... and she said, THERE's NOT SEX IN IT??? And I said no but the word 'masturbation' is. Not that anyone does in the story, but it's mentioned. And she laughed and asked for the link.

sylvia said...So - and I'm sorry if I'm being thick - but was the point that discovering sex is horrid? Or did I miss something deeper?

Sarah Laurenson said...Now isn't that a great lesson for a YA book. Mirrors a lot of real life messages from parents at least.

Evil Editor said...I don't think that's the message at all.

sylvia said...Discovering sex *was* horrid for me - no foul, no fault, just ineptness on all parts. So I could see myself as a teen finding sympathy with the book. But on the other hand, as an adult, I don't like the implication that having sex (just the once, sir) means that I might grow a mouth on my foot.

Dave F. said...I might get stoned (rocks and spoiled veggies) for saying this but sometime in a kids life, you have to say. IT'S SEX! GET OVER IT! and be perfectly, brutally honest with them.

Sarah Laurenson said...Honesty is a good way to go, I think. Better than letting them fumble around and get all kinds of diseases and weird hang ups in their ignorance.

Dave F. said...Diseases like the "Bug" or AIDS or HPV or the Clap?

Sarah Laurenson said...Lots of great diseases to be had out there.

stacy said...So maybe the deformities were physical manifestations of what teens feel?
According to Dave, this was one of the themes. I'm probably not helping. i didn't even read the damn book.

Evil Editor said...Burns has said that the mutations can be read as a metaphor for adolescence, sexual awakening and the transition into adulthood.--Wikipedia

Dave F. said...I think every teen thinks something is wrong with them at one point or another in growing up.

Robin S. said...Hell - sex is one of the truly amazingly good things about being human. You know what you're doing, and unless you're a nun married to Jesus or you're frigid or your partner sucks not in a good way, you like it. Ok. That was a long list of reasons NOT to like it. But you know what I mean. I think it was the physical manifestation of angst at a certain age, along with life lessons about differences, with some nakeds picture and a lot of vaginal imagery tossed in for the guys.

stacy said...I was fine during my teen years. My twenties, however, were my "teen years" in terms of angst. Pure hell.

sylvia said...I started to write "in this world, you can have sex once and you are fucked" and then I thought "don't swear" and then I thought "what a ludicrous statement that is! Of course you are, by definition."

Sarah Laurenson said...It's that invincibility factor that leads them to think they won't get anything. But if they had to think about getting something obvious and hard to hide? Not sure the message would get across, but I guess it's worth a shot.

Sarah Laurenson said...So do you think the author/illustrator compromised the integrity of the book in order to broaden the appeal to more readers?

Robin S. said...Hey Sarah, All kidding aside, I don't see the author as having compromised to draw in more readers. I was just disappointed because there were more good female pics than male.

Sarah Laurenson said...Of course you were, Robin. :)

Evil Editor said...Unprotected sex can make you an outcast if you get the Bug. Getting the bug can lead to being treated unfairly, can't even buy a bucket of chicken. There are subtle lessons that aren't bad (like sex sucks).

stacy said...Huh? You think sex sucks??

Sarah Laurenson said...Some sex sucks.

Dave F. said...I am more attuned to AIDS in anything because years ago (in 79 and 82) I had major surgery and blood transfusions. Those were the years of the unknown disease called that was eventually called AIDS being in the blood supply. I worried for at least a decade as the health crisis unfolded. I saw the metaphor at the first mention.

sylvia said...So am I right in that the overall message is that if you have sex, you can catch a horrible disease? I don't mind the general concept of showing Aids or HIV or the clap as a physical issue that would draw attention (a mouth in your throat, fur in your face, horrific acne) But it feels to me like it's bordering on abstinence training with a fantasy touch. AND ... in that case, what's with the tail?

Robin S. said...I'm grinning now - when minions read these comments later, they'll have a big time.

Sarah Laurenson said...The fastest growing risk group for AIDS was young kids. Not sure if it still is.

Robin S. said...I abhor the thought of abstinence training.What the hell's that about, right? I taught my girls a little thing called 'reality training'. Sex is good stuff, but only with a person you actually like. As a person.

Sarah Laurenson said...Is it about abstinence in the book? Is that the only way to not get the bug?

Dave F. said...I don't see abstinence training in this at all. I do see teen isolation and teen angst and teens struggling to discover who they are. In the book, one of the guys does it cavalierly and without concern for getting the "Bug." He acts like it's a badge of honor, a rite of passage. That's not arguing abstinence, that's a teen rebelling against the world. They all do.

Robin S. said...Agreed. It's not actually about abstinence, as far as I can tell. Although in all fairness, that would be the 100% way not to become diseased/changed.

sylvia said...Well, the author seemed pretty teen friendly so that's why I wondered if I'd missed something big. Because it seemed like there was no happy sex ever which I guess can be true but hell, does it show up in any other type of fiction?

Evil Editor said...I didn't find all the sex to be unhappy sex.

Sylvia said...OK, so what was the point? Just simply being a teenager is hell? (totally agree, btw) No one had happy sex. Having sex caused the disease. I don't think Burns ever in any way implied they shouldn't have sex in the story ... but as a reader, what's the message that you take?

Evil Editor said...Here's a review of the book with some interesting points:
http://www.english.ufl.edu/imagetext/archives/v2_1/reviews/raney.shtml

sylvia said...(reading the review still) The sex itself isn't bad, only the result? I guess the knee-jerk response I have had is exactly based on the underlying theme (I felt) that not having sex was how to win. Not that anyone ever considered it.

Sarah Laurenson said...That's a long detailed review.

stacy said...So does anyone here think Burns could have gotten his points across better in novel form rather than GN form?

Evil Editor said...If he wanted to get them across to teen boys, he reached more this way. Also, if he considers himself an artist first and a writer second, he may not have cared about which way got his point across better.

stacy said...That's a good point, EE.

Robin S. said...That makes sense to me.

Robin S. said...Stacy, I think he got his point across - but in all honesty, I'd rather have read about it. Sorry. What if Kafka lived now, and he wrote Metamorphosis as a graphic? Think he'd have ended up a literary icon?

Evil Editor said...Who?

Sarah Laurenson said...Maybe more younger men would've read it and the world would be totally different today.

Robin S. said...I think I'm a word dinosaur. At least I'm honest, though. Does that help at all? I think I need to read the Neil Gaiman GN's and see what I think then.

stacy said...Well, if anyone can change your mind, Robin, it's Gaiman.

Robin S. said...Stacy, I have an Amazon gift cert. Maybe I'll get one of those Gaiman ones and see. I really like his writing style. Never heard of the guy until last year - and then EE had the book on his list and you loved him and there you go. Now I do.

sylvia said...I absolutely feel that more boys will read a graphic novel than read a large chunk of text. I don't think his point would have been clearer to me in prose than it was in pictures.

Sarah Laurenson said...There are some graphic books that get the point across much better than they would as prose. Perhaps it's more open to interpretation in one form over the other.

Dave F. said...It is what it is, a graphic novel presented for both the eye and ear. It must be seen and read, whereas a regular novel only has to be heard aloud or read silently. Why do we read to children to help them learn?

Evil Editor said...And there are those who are more into art than lit. And who's to say Burns is a good enough writer to do this in novel form, any more than we have the artistic talent to do it in graphic form.

Sarah Laurenson said...I was tempted to make one of my WIPs into a graphic novel, but I'm not an illustrator. Makes it difficult.

Robin S. said... If you don't draw, don't people collaborate on these sometimes?

Sarah Laurenson said...Yeah, Robin, but it takes a lot of time and effort to do the graphics - on spec. I'm doing something else with that book now.

ril said...Thing is, I think it doesn't matter art / photography / literature / graphic novels / cinema / TV -- some is entertainment, some aims to evoke deeper thinking and meaning. All have their place and their value. Oh, and music too, sorry Stacy...

Robin S. said...Good point, ril. I suppose you read the earlier comments and saw me being a snob, eh? The thing is, I do think each has its place, and these 'places' all have/hold meaning for their respective 'receivers'. But that still, for me, doesn't mean that they all have equal weighting as art forms. Like velvet Elvis paintings aren't like feasting your eyes on a master's work.

stacy said...Yeah, but Robin, they're both still paintings. I think GNs and novels are different beasts altogether. It's hard to compare them, because, as EE said, some people care more about art than they do about words. I think in GNs, it's easy to care about both equally.

ril said...Like velvet Elvis paintings aren't like feasting you eyes on a master's work.
Kind of depends what exchange rate you use. Some people clearly value the latest episode of Two and a Half Men over anything monochrome by a Swedish director. If art is all about the interpreteation, it's tough to really challenge what they value...

stacy said...That's a good point, Ril.

sylvia said...I am sorry, I can't see the white wolves on black velvet as art. But I can see a corollary in terms of television vs film vs novel. All of them have the same premise, none of them tell quite the same story, it's not always clear which came first. I wouldn't like to try to rank them on merit scale.

ril said...But I can see a corollary in terms of television vs film vs novel. All of them have the same premise, none of them tell quite the same story, it's not always clear which came first. I wouldn't like to try to rank them on merit scale...

stacy said...I love a good action film, but is Avatar art? Are Robert Downey Jr.'s abs art? I don't know.

ril said...Not sure you need to. I don't see them as being in competition, other than, perhaps, for people's time.

Sarah Laurenson said...A nicely chiseled set of abs are definitely art.

sylvia said...OK, well, I'm going to be a bit of a snob but: There's a difference between "I like it" and "It's good." So I like french fries from McDonald's (god save me). I also am aware that there is no culinary talent that goes into making them. Even if I hadn't had the bad fortune to work for a fast food restaurant (actually, I worked for Burger King and the management swore we used much healthier food than McD's) I think I would know that these were not a culinary achievement. I don't like Borscht. That doesn't mean there isn't something special about it and it would be unreasonable for me to argue that food that I didn't like was distasteful. But that doesn't mean that I think everything I like is good.

Robin S. said...This is one helluva ride if you read these last ten or so posts in order. Love it.

Sarah Laurenson said...When The West Wing first came out, it was done more like a movie and the difference showed. Lost it after awhile though and it became just another TV show. Or maybe it boosted the overall quality of TV?

stacy said...Well, when Aaron Sorkin left the show, the writing just tanked and it became a bit of a parody of itself (IMHO). I do think the West Wing was art. Not only that, but I think it was a great educational tool in showing the public just how government actually works - all the wheeling and dealing. I just said in a review of Stuart Neville's Ghosts of Belfast that I think fiction can sometimes be a better teacher than the history books.

ril said...While "better" is subjective, I certainly would agree that more people know about their past through fiction than through non-fiction...

Sarah Laurenson said...Very true, Stacy. Fiction is used a lot as an educational tool. It's just that sometimes we authors have to learn how to hide that lesson really, really well.

stacy said... I think it all begs the question: What is art? Who am I to say the velvet Elvis isn't art when clearly there are people out there who do?

Sarah Laurenson said...I love books by certain authors but not all of those authors' books.

Sarah Laurenson said...I think it's a lot about what resonates with us at different points in time in our lives.

stacy said...I do agree there are some objective criteria, Sylvia.

Sarah Laurenson said...It doesn't sound like the lesson was hidden in this book, but it does sound like it wasn't exactly clear either. Probably the lesson each person takes away from it depends on their experiences.

Robin S. said...Agree with Sylvia and Sarah on the quality of certain things vs. others. Although they said it much better than I just did.

stacy said..."Better" is subjective, but that's been my experience. Apparently the politicians in Northern Ireland were once IRA, which meant they killed a lot - perhaps even indiscriminately - in their rise to power. That's something a news account wouldn't have likely given me.

Sylvia said...now you lost me entirely with that comparison because I don't know what's on TV. That's not to say your description was wrong at all - but from a resonating view, I was left echoing in a lonely manner. What I think is wrong (and this is me being judgmental) is if I were to say US series are BADBADBAD and as I don't know what you are referring to, clearly you are in the wrong. I think that if we are both gazing upon the white wolf painted on velvet, we can agree that your cousin thinks it is beautiful and I think it is not. (I wouldn't like to presume your viewpont) And I would ask whether she saw it as art. And if she told me how she didn't understand why anyone would line up to see the Mona Lisa, I would consider her words and value them accordingly. If she said "any old painting, never saw it" or even "there was a photoshop thing like it" then my process of evaluation would be pretty simplistic. So the fact that she saw the velvet picture as art isn't enough to make me accept it is art but her explanation thereof could make every difference in the world. Er, no offense to your cousin.

stacy said...That was actually an offshoot more than a comparison, Sylvia. I've been pretty stream of consciousness tonight. : ) Sorry to confuse!

Sarah Laurenson said...A lot of new styles of art didn't become acceptable until much later. Perhaps velvet paintings are the modern equivalent of the cubist movement.
What if someone new to Picasso saw some of those noses severely out of joint and shrugged it off as child's play? All art - including writing - is subjective.

ril said...Indeed, a Scotch Egg, sliced neatly through the middle, sitting on a simple, white, country plate. Now that's art. I agree that there are objective criteria to making and viewing art. DaVinci put hours and hours into studying the human form and therefore made paintings at which we still marvel today. Yet some people, subjectively speaking, would loathe the Mona Lisa. How much of that is the viewer's ignorance regarding form and composition in painting? How much of it is taste? I can't answer.

stacy said...OTOH, I also feel like those objective criteria sometimes contribute to people feeling as though they're supposed to like something they don't. So I also agree with Sarah. I can never make up my mind about these things. I guess I don't think art has to be one or the other.

Sarah Laurenson said...Should we like a piece of art because it just sold for millions of dollars? Hm. Hard to say No.

stacy said...I guess I think that while artists need objective criteria to make art (there are just certain things writers need to know in order to produce at all), all bets are off when that art makes it to the viewer/reader/listener. You can educate a person in classical music and there's a chance they'll still hate it (for example). So much of it boils down to taste.

ril said...One thing is sure, you can't tell other people what they should value...