Interview with the author:Evil Editor said...So, supposedly this is nonfiction written in the format of a fictional murder mystery. To me it seemed like just nonfiction.
vkw said...I thought it was read like a dissertation about the origins of a detective novel, origins of detectives and a horrible murder that happened in Victorian England. And, because it was not focused on a single topic it was a tedious read at times.
Sylvia said...Yeah, I was thrown by the whole "mystery thriller" aspect. The story of the murder was fascinating and the view into Victorian lifestyle was intriguing. But I didn't really think it was a thriller. I think I'd have loved the book if it was half the length. But there were a lot of tangents and I felt like I was being kept away from the core story.
Robin B. said...Agree - the core story was fascinating enough - didn't need the on-and-on 'facts'.
Evil Editor said...The fact that I knew nothing about this murder case kept it interesting, but I could have done with less detail.
Robin B. said...No, I don't think of it as a thriller, either, and to be honest, I think if it had been written differently, it could've been much better. I read background on this - and on the Dickens interest, and I kept imagining if she'd gone wholly novel about it, how good it could have been.
Evil Editor said...Apparently there were dozens of newspapers back then, and the author was able to get copies of them, but I thought she provided too many quotes from them, especially when they frequently said the same things.
Sylvia said...I think as a book about Victorian life, it was very interesting and so people who are looking for that type of book without it being too dry would love this.
Dave Fragments said...I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thought it was too detailed and too long.
Evil Editor said...We didn't really need to know so much about William in Australia. Perhaps she wanted to show that if not for Constance's confession, clearing William of suspicion, the world would never have had the Great Barrier Reef knowledge he provided in his book. The least he could have done was confess in his old age that he was in on it.
Dave Fragments said...Spoken like a dreamer and a romantic. The dread family secret goes to the grave unspoken, don't you know -- unless it can be used to inflict guilt on the children and make them ashamed of themselves. That's the typical dysfunctional family - a hidden, unrevealed "sin" of something that only has import by the fact that it is hidden. That doesn't justify murder but we all aren't Lord MArchmain with a death bed conversion and confession.
Sylvia said...Confession: yes, but it would have made for a much better story! Yeah, the William information at the end was I guess meant to wrap things up - but it felt like another long digression to me. But it was a fascinating case and the book was interesting, just ultimately too detailed and not as strong as it could be. But I'm still glad I read it. I think the expectation was just set wrong - so I was trying to focus on the murder. Other similar books, I've been very accepting of diversions and background information (The Ghost Map comes to mind) but I didn't go into those expecting a thriller.
Robin B. said...I do like to think of the origins of, as the author put it, the first English language detective, but I wish she'd written an article about this part- the background, etc - and simply told a good story in her book.
Evil Editor said...Some of the longer notes in the back were more interesting than the info in the book.
Dave Fragments said...I think that I would have put all of the detail into an more appendixes.
vkw said...I will add this. In the beginning, I was shocked by how similar the murder investigation was to Jonbenet Ramsey murder (child murder in Denver about a decade ago.)
At first the police thought it was break-in, then the father was blamed and then the brother was accused. The police botched it from the very beginning. the press wouldn't let it go. It was so similar to the Whicher case that it was hard to believe the murders took place centuries apart
Sylvia said...vkw: That's a really good point - I remember being horrified reading about the JonBenét case and how it was handled. There's some real similarities.
Evil Editor said...Yes it was definitely eye-opening to find that the press was as sensationalistic a century and a half ago as they are today.
Robin B. said...True about the press. Sensationalism is as old as people's seemy interests, I guess! If it sells more papers, they write it. I always thought of this as a newer phenomenon as well.
vkw said...I guess I always saw the press as noble, (for lack of a better word) until they becamse the sharks they are now. (circling around blood in feeding frenzy) I was shocked at their behavior in this case. It was an eye opener. I feel niave, even misled.
Dave Fragments said...The press as noble -- what a thought. When I was a teen, my Aunt lived and worked in New York City and the NEW YORK POST used to print the bloodiest and nastiest photos on the back page of its daily yellowness to attract sales. Guess what, it worked. It still true with the NY POST that it has sensationalistic stories on the back page and its motto is "if it bleeds, it leads" Should I invoke Charlie Sheen? The rabid and sensational press today is a mere child compared to the early press of this time period.
vkw said...I once saw journalism as a noble profession. I think its okay to be naive sometimes. Let's don't invoke Charlie, it's like paying money to see someone kill himself. I know the author wanted to emphasize Whicher as the detective but to me he wasn't a sympathetic character and I thought he was boring. I didn't find him competent or even interesting. The family was more interesting. They were fascinating.
Sylvia said...The dynamics of the family were very interesting to me too - which is I guess part of what made the press latch onto the story like that. I also did sort of expect Whicher to solve it all and was a bit disappointed even though I know true stories don't work that way
Evil Editor said...Note # 299 (the 2nd 299) in the back lists several books and films that are fictionalized versions of this story. I wonder if, in those versions, there's a solution to the murder? I wonder if they're still in print/video.
Dave Fragments said...In certain times, Police were very closed about their procedures. Many departments still are. They have the experience and no one can improve them. Yet, you see complete failures like this case and JBR case and wonder.
Robin B. said...Too bad it ruined the detective - being right. I wonder if that also would be the case today, if the wrong family was crossed?
vkw said...I wanted to comment on the brother. The author implicated him as a suspect. However, the only evidence I saw against him was that his sister couldn’t do it alone. However, one of the reasons she was disregarded early was the belief a 15 year-old couldn’t do the murder at all. So maybe he didn't confess because he didn't do it. Constance was a fascinating person. To commit a murder like this and then go on to leave the life she led . . .most of the time people do not have the capacity to change like this.
Evil Editor said...Maybe she didn't do it either. There was definitely something suspicious about Constance's confession stressing that she did it with no help. She seemed to protest too much. She could easily be totally innocent.
Robin B. said...And her brother went on to do 'great things' and also ended up in Australia areas. I don't know - it just seems, if you pardon the pun - a little fishy.
vkw said...To Robin: They both went on to do great things. It really is quite odd to see people change this way. I am not naive enough to believe that murderers become saints. That is evidence that the misery in that household was extreme. Also, anyone think that the syphilis connection was a huge leap by the author? Because I did.
Robin B. said...It surprises me that so many people admired this book. I checked it on Amazon before I ordered it. Then I went back when I was maybe halfway through, because I kept thinking "why am I not impressed?" and there were some reviews that said things like 'this would've been better if it hadn't tried to be four books in one' - that kind of thing.
vkw said...To Robin: I agree the book felt like it tried to review several different topics making it tedious and cumbersome. I think the author should have made three books. I think it was a history book as well and not a novel
Robin B. said...Absolutely! It's a fascinating topic. And I'm still not sure the daughter did it. That in itself could make a good story.
Sylvia said...Well, that's an interesting question. Could you write the "story" as a very focused thriller and release a second book with all the detail and background as a tie-in. I guess you'd have to sell the first one and watch it do well, first.
Evil Editor said...Perhaps the reason I found our first nonfiction book, The Devil in the White City, more interesting: it had more blood and death and horrors. The press knows what we want.
Sylvia said...The Devil in the White City: that's an interesting comparison. It was riveting although it held less conversation / recreated scenes.
Sylvia said...To an extent, of course, the author suffers for bad marketing that might not have been anything to do with her. The expectations set by mystery thriller also came up in the video interview that EE posted - you can see the author quite surprised at the implication that anything in the story might be fiction. Clearly, her view of the book was not to pitch it as a novel.
Evil Editor said...The woman doing the interview called it a novel at the beginning of the interview. However, most of the quotes from reviews on the back and inside the front page call it nonfiction. My understanding was that it was supposedly presented in the same manner as murder mysteries are now. Anyone read The Moonstone?
vkw said...Good point Sylvia. I was going to ask EE this. How does a book like this get marketed as a novel? Isn't there rules on this - like - if it not fiction then you can't market it as fiction? Maybe it wasn't marketed as fiction and I was just making an assumption. . . .
Dave Fragments said...one of the problems I see with many investigations (be they police or scientific) is that people search for specific facts that support their theory to the neglect of everything else. It's like a tunnel vision. But beyond that, the result is that the investigation produces only evidence that its theory is right and excludes all other theories. That's an explanation of what the police did wrong. Instead of being unbiased, the were theoreticians out to prove their judgments right.
vkw said...Dave's right about how investigations work. An hypothesis is developed and then evidence is collected to either support it or disregard it. It becomes a problem when the evidence that disregards the hypothesis is not considered and people become unwilling to change their hypothesis. But this is the procedure for scientific study.
Robin B. said...Our discussion here of 'whodunit' makes me think about how much everyone loves a human puzzle to figure out. Also makes me think about how many times law 'enforcement' people get it wrong, or blunder through . . . and how very much background helps - not the big stuff - not the showy stuff - but how much you can learn in quiet conversations with people around crime, if you have an open mind and you have the time to think through connections. I'm guessing Mr. W. was highly frustrated with how all of this turned out.
vkw said...Did anyone find it fascinating how much "evidence" was based on facial expressions, how much someone cried or didn't or how slight changes in a story became focused on? I found that odd but I guess that's all they had back then. I guess during that time if you murdered someone you needed to cry a lot so as to not be considered a suspect.
Dave Fragments said...A lack of emotional response will still get you in trouble with the police even today. It is the preconceived notion that the wrongdoer has no remorse or guilt and that the interviewer can always see deception. Pardon me if I'm a skeptic.
vkw said...Funny: Antisocial personality disorders can mimic human emotion perfectly and read other people nearly perfectly.
Evil Editor said...Perhaps the attitude/beliefs toward mental illness/insanity in this book was a relevant and educational part of the book? It almost seemed you could be accused of a crime because your mom was considered mad.
Robin B. said...Yes, EE, and the misery of a screwed-up household - which can cause the insanity.
Dave Fragments said...Stereotypes: "You came from the wrong side of the tracks" "His father was a criminal and he will be too"
vkw said...Oh I forgot I was going to mention that EE. Not only was I fascinated by the representation of mental illness (especially female mental illness) but about the death of children. To read about children murdered and their murderers getting off lightly . . . was sad. But fascinating when the murder of a wealthy child became so famous. Again . . . how the wealthy are treated and how the poor are treated hasn't changed that much.
Robin B. said...Agree, vkw - class system is alive and well and living...everywhere.
vkw said...I would need to look up the history of psychology to remember when the first idea of genetically link mental illness became prominent. But we do know that it is now and I am sure someone in Victorian England realized the prevalance of schizophrenia or depression in families. I was fascinated how much women got off playing the insane card back then. Well you know we are the weaker sex.
Robin B. said...http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=F50612F83A5E137B93C1A8178ED85F4C8784F9 Interesting article written less than 20 years after the murder - I got this from the NYT archives.
Evil Editor said...I see The Moonstone can be read online at Project Gutenberg. "The first and greatest detective novel."--T.S. Eliot Bleak House is also referenced an awful lot. The BBC miniseries of Bleak House is excellent.
Robin B. said...The Moonstone - I'll check that out. I noticed, too, that the book was referred to as a novel in the video interview - but it didn't read that way to me. If it had, I'd have been pleased. Funny, but the book last month was pure novel, and I learned a boatload at the same time, about that era in England, without ever being made to feel I was in it for the learning! I'm still glad you had it listed as a Book Chat choice, EE. It's a fascinating case.
Evil Editor said...Well, I wouldn't have listed it if not for the numerous reviews that made it sound great. I appreciate the amount of research that went into it, just which there'd been more restraint with respect to how much of it was put into the book. Speaking of last month's book, I'm halfway through the 2nd Flavia de Luce novel, and loving it.
Robin B. said...Flavia - yep, EE, I'm now totally sold on the series. Ordered the next two books and have already devoured them, and I'm now impatient for #4.
