Book Chat 10: Susan Patron/The Higher Power of Lucky

December, 2008

Chris Eldin said...Okay, may I ask the first question? Would you have read this book as a child?

BuffySquirrel said...As a child I read every book I could get my paws on. If it had come within reach, I'd have read it.

BBJD said...I think so. The Main Character has intelligence and wit. To be honest, I don't believe I would have liked it as well as I do reading it now.

Evil Editor said...I'd have read it, though I'd have found it more boring as a child.

Kiersten said...Sure, but it would have annoyed me. The whole "She put it in a place other than her brain to ponder later" thing when anything was related to romance, etc, would have really ticked me off. It felt like she was talking down to that age group. As a ten-year-old I was VERY aware of how boys felt about me and how that made me feel.

Chris Eldin said...Good point, Kiersten! That's one of the cardinal sins of children's writing--to talk down to them.

Dave F. said...I would have read it. I think the fuss about "scrotum" is silly.

Editorial Anonymous said... Is a book which contains the word scrotum appropriate for 9-12 year olds? Just who are the uptight hysterics who think it's not? Why when everyone involved in a discussion is up on his/her high horse does nobody notice until the field is thoroughly trampled into mud?

BBJD said...The word (scrotum) didn't bother me. I remember reading books with worse.

Kiersten said...I didn't think the whole scrotum thing was necessary, but I don't see what the big deal is, either.

BuffySquirrel said...Come to that, every word in the book is unnecessary. The whole book is unnecessary. Reason not the need, for Nature needs not what thou gorgeous wearst, which scarcely keeps you warm. All. Unnecessary.

Kiersten said...Buffy, you're strange. I like you.

Evil Editor said...What book is necessary? Besides Why You Don't Get Published, of course.

Dave F. said...It's kind of shallow to hit that word and go into spasms of fright and indignation, isn’t it? But then, Lucky doesn't know what the word means and adults worry that having to discuss sex with their own children might make them silly and squeamish. At the end, the explanation is so plain that it turns the fuss into a "tiny moth"... Irony is hell, isn't it?

BuffySquirrel said...I thought the scrotum thing illustrated one of the difficulties facing children: obscure adult conversations and finding out what those mysterious words mean. It made more sense to me than a lot of the rest of the book. It also should have reassured parents that if you just answer the question, the child will be satisfied. Not corrupted. Just happy with an answer.

Dave F. said...I get questions from children about my physical appearance for several reasons and most times, the adults apologize because they consider the questions impolite. Children want a simple, straightforward answer. Children aren't equipped to discuss philosophy. People forget that.

Editorial Anonymous said..."obscure adult conversations and finding out what those mysterious words mean" Absolutely. Those conversations were the most fascinating.

BBJD said...I agree with Buffy. When my son asks questions of this nature I just tell him. Usually, that's the end of it.

Dave F. said...I think that the word "Scrotum" hides the real struggle that Lucky is going through and that is: Why did her mother die and leave her? Will Bridgett leave me, too? Why does Daddy stay away? Those are terrifying questions for children.

Chris Eldin said...Exactly!! Which is why I thought it could've been written as a book for older kids....with more character development.

peggy said...hell, I never knew what a scrotum was until I was 15..nothing but 8 girls in my house, so probably wouldn't have read it, unless one of my friends had it.

Evil Editor said...It was a dog's scrotum. They keep 'em clean. It's not like it was a disgusting guy's scrotum.

Robin S. said...It's not the word scrotum that makes me think what I think. I think the word is funny, just like the body part itself.

Chris Eldin said...I thought much of the prose was lovely and written for children, but ultimately it was a story that may be enjoyed by grown-ups more than children. I tried several times to get my boys to read it, but they won't. Do you think this book has more appeal to girls than boys?

peggy said...My sons would have read it, they learned the proper words for body parts. But it does seem like grownups like it more.

BBJD said...The scrotum thing was a small part (no pun intended). What intrigued me was how Lucky was struggling with the fact she actually had come to love her guardian, but feared if she admitted it her guardian would leave, too.

Chris Eldin said...I felt the pacing was too slow for boys to get into, no matter that the MC had a hobby of collecting insects, and the snake in the dryer, etc. There really wasn't enough 'action' for a boy these days. What do you all think?

Robin S. said...Again, I loved the pacing and the flow of the narrative - but I don't think my girls would have read this - not as their choice from a bunch of books on the table. But I do think they'd love it now (they are 16 and 20). I loved it.

BuffySquirrel said...I think boys wouldn't read it because it has a girl on the cover. Poor little conformists.

Chris Eldin said...What if it had a scrotum on the cover?

Evil Editor said...Dog or human?

BuffySquirrel said...If it had a scrotum on the cover, nobody would get to read it.

BBJD said...I think boys would read it - if they are a reader. Readers have their favorites, but they generally read across subjects and genres.

Editorial Anonymous said...I think the pacing was too slow for a lot of kids to get into.

Chris Eldin said...Do you think the discussions of "Higher Power" are too esoteric for kids?

Editorial Anonymous said...I think any conversation about protecting children from ideas is too obscure for children.

Kiersten said...The Higher Power discussions were kind of simplistic, I thought. And didn't end up going anywhere. I enjoyed the book and thought it was well-written, but she made Lucky too old and too young all at the same time.

BuffySquirrel said...Eh, I still don't understand the whole "Higher Power" thing.

Chris Eldin said...Buffy, the Higher Power of minions is EE. heheheeh

Robin S. said...I think this book was beautifully written, but I think it reads as though it was written about children, for adults. A memoir of a painful time.

Dave F. said...It's a sweet story. From an adult point-of-view, predictable, but from a child's point of view full of odd characters and excitement. "I hurt my foot" and "I got a bug in my ear" are terrifying adventures for young kids. But 5-year-old Miles has the good line -- "that means she not staying away from me on purpose." Bright little moocher that boy.

Kiersten said...So here is the problem: do you write middle-grade that adults love and think is worthwhile, and that kids find boring, or do you write middle-grade that kids eat up and adults think is worthless? Or do you give up on writing middle-grade entirely? I opted for that one.

BuffySquirrel said...Write for kids. Write for kids! Adults who've forgotten what being a kid was like aren't worth writing for anyway!

Robin S. said...I agree, buff. Write for kids if you're writing for kids. Maybe the author thinks she did do that? Newbery sure does.

Editorial Anonymous said...It's a good book, but would it have won the Newbery if Susan Patron wasn't a very well-liked librarian? Haven't the Newbery choices been inexplicable enough times to completely kill everyone's curiosity about what goes on in the committee's chambers?

Robin S. said...Why can't Newbery read for 'most distinguished fiction that children actually read"? Not trying to be funny. I'd really like to know.

peggy said...I don't know, writing MG, finding the right humor is important. something a grown up will laugh at, because of a memory and something a kid will laugh at because they did it. We are all just kids at heart, reminders in books can be fun.

Kiersten said...Then there are books like The Phantom Tollbooth, which I loved as a child. I reread it as an adult and couldn't believe how great it was. There was no way I got all of the cleverness as a child. That's the kind of book I'd like to write. If I weren't lazy. And if I were far cleverer. I think I would have read this as a child, but it wouldn't have been among my favorites.

Chris Eldin said...The kid tying the knots..I almost felt like the author copied that from Maniac Magee (a character in the book is famous for tying knots). It was done well once, I didn't like seeing it done again.

Kiersten said... Maniac McGee--there's a book that deals with these same issues, in harder ways even, but that I loved as a child. Which, once again, I'm not bashing HPoL. I really did like it.

BuffySquirrel said...My favourite book around the age this is aimed at was Tarzan of the Apes. Now that's slow. :) (reread it recently; oh dear it's BAD oh dear oh dear)

Chris Eldin said...I felt that the relationship between Lucky and Bridgette could've been developed more. I don't know. The story is beautiful as is, but I almost wish it were longer, and geared for older kids.

BuffySquirrel said...That would involve talking to children. And everybody knows children don't know nuffin'.

Robin S. said... I thought that, too, Chris, and then I thought that really, the relationship from Lucky's point of view was undeveloped in the way children's worldviews are undeveloped - whole in important ways, but missing pieces of the adult puzzle (lucky them - pun intended).

Editorial Anonymous said...Why can't Newbery read for 'most distinguished fiction that children actually read"? Well, then you get into the swampy area of which children. Some children will read and enjoy HPoL

Kiersten said...It felt very episodic and vaguely underdeveloped. I agree with you, Chris.
Here's Lincoln's defining thing. Okay, here's Miles' defining thing. Okay, here's Short Sammy's defining thing. Okay, here's...

BuffySquirrel said... I thought the book lost its way about halfway through. As if the author saw the word count looming.

Dave F. said... How does Lucky handle the loss by death? That's the question. How do children (not just Lucky, but five year old Miles) handle separations, divorces, remarriages? Why do we have rituals for burial? What purpose does the ritual serve? The memorial service: Gee, I thought it was cruel at that age when we had to sing hymns while the coffin was lowered into the ground and people wept. Insisting that a ten year old throw the ashes of her mother to the wind is hard. How does the kid understand that? And the father, where is he? Absent from the funeral. How awful.

Kiersten said... No, he was there, she didn't know he was though, thought he was a funeral guy.

BBJD said... If her father was the mortician, why didn't he even talk to her when he was there? If hecared enough to arrange for a guardian, why avoid her?

BuffySquirrel said... The kid can't understand that. It's a great example of how kids get involved in things they don't understand by adults who've forgotten that kids don't understand.

Evil Editor said...I thought there was too much teaching. Snakes can be good, parsley is the key to French cooking.... seems like every topic that came up we got a lesson instead of just plot.

Chris Eldin said...EE, Yes! I agree! That was off-putting for me. Like a grown-up trying (and failing) to get inside a child's world. It truly felt like an adult short story more than it felt like a children's book.

Robin S. said... I didn't think of these things as lessons, EE. I thought of them as Lucky's life lessons, inserted into the narrative, as they are part of her ongoing inner voice.

BuffySquirrel said... I thought the snake was too undramatic. Seemed like Lucky fixed the problem too easily.

BBJD said... I looked up past Newberry winners. I'd only read one on the entire list.

Chris Eldin said... And I also think that Newberry books should be as appealing to boys as to girls. I know that's tough to do, but for an honor so prestigious, I can think of quite a few books that achieve this.

Evil Editor said... No way would the dress no have been mentioned by Brigitte. Surely it was ruined.

Dave F. said... When a kid goes missing like Lucky did, the person searching for the kid no longer cares about the "red dress."

Evil Editor said... There wasn't that much concern, they all "knew" where she was.

Sarah Laurenson said... I thought the book was well written, but slow and I don't think I would have read it as a child. I was into the Hardy Boys which were really not well written. As for the scrotum, I applaud using the real name for body parts.

Chris Eldin said... The father's absence from the girl's life wasn't fully explained, and wasn't questioned enough by the MC. I thought with the loss of the mother, the child would want to cling to the father, or at least want answers as to where he is.

Robin S. said... I agree, buff! And I think that not understanding and rehashing things through a child's eyes made for wonderful reading for me as an adult.

Robin S. said... Chris, I don't think Lucky really ever knew her father more than vaguely- knowing he was out there. Her worldview was, he was in absentia. Her family after her mother died and befor Brigitte seemed to be the people in Hard Pan.

Dave F. said... And when Litle Miles said that his mother was OK that his Mom was in prison because she wasn't staying away from him because he did something. There was a higher authority involved. That's very, very bright and understanding in the simple way kids think.

Sarah Laurenson said... So that brings me back to the scrotum issue. Why do parents shy from telling kids the truth? It's so much easier and leads to a lot fewer misunderstandings.

Dave F. said... I remember begging a ten-year-old to some to a funeral because I knew he had to say goodbye. It's hard to explain that to a child and harder to tell him that you need him with you at the time. Kids don't understand the rituals of grief and loss.

BuffySquirrel said... I imagine the father was there to say goodbye to the woman he was once married to. I saw appointing a guardian as his way of making sure he didn't have to be bothered about Lucky at all.

BBJD said... People avoid the truth because it embarrasses them. Claiming they are only considering someone else is an excuse.

Kiersten said... Would anyone give this book as a gift to a child?

Sarah Laurenson said... I don't know. I thought the kids were a bit shallow with all that was going on. Either that or a bit removed emotionally, though her fear about B leaving was good.

BuffySquirrel said... Eh, parents think if they tell kids the truth, their kids will no longer be innocent. They've got that "innocent" all confused with that there "ignorant" word, I guess.

Dave F. said... I'm giving it as a gift and I'm already in hot water for it. The girl is 7 y/o and my mother wants me to wait three years.

Chris Eldin said... Wow! Kiersten, my response to your question is going to be stronger than I would've thought, but I absolutely loathe to pick books out for children. I really do. I always give gift cards.

Sarah Laurenson said... Not on the top of my list, K.

Robin S. said... Bevie, I agree. And Miss K, depends on the kid - but I wouldn't give it to a kid whose parents I didn't know pretty well, because as Bevie points out - the adults may have honesty issues all their own.

Sarah Laurenson said... My Mom was great about answering honestly. I bless her for it today.

Evil Editor said... But would your mom have wanted you getting your info from fiction books or from her?

Robin S. said... Whose mom? My mom only read Ladies Home Journal and cookbooks.

Chris Eldin said... My kids have medical dictionaries in their rooms. I noticed my 8 year old looking up 'puberty' a couple of months ago.

BuffySquirrel said... My mother suggested the dictionary.

BBJD said... We keep the dictionary handy when we watch DVD movies. Every time anyone says anything any of us doesn't understand, or has a difficult time explaining, we grab the dictionary.

BuffySquirrel said... Apparently my husband's mother made sure her children had access to a set of junior encyclopedias that answered their questions. I imagine modern jr encyclopedias are like the "Bodyworks" CD...everything remotely related to genitalia is mysteriously missing!

Chris Eldin said... LOL Buffy! Or, if you have boys, smiley faces are crayoned onto the boobs.

Chris Eldin said... Dave, I let my kids read just about anything they want. Except for Series of Unfortunate Events, which I think is way too dark and full of despair for kids.

BuffySquirrel said... I don't know any kids to give it to. Although I suppose I could offer it to a school library.

Kiersten said... Oh, especially as the books progressed with SOE, Chris. The first few were fun, but they got so, so dark.

Robin S. said... My mom told me all the Latin/medical names for everything, but, as she was frigid as a Frigidaire, I didn't exactly take that to be the unvarnished truth.

Sarah Laurenson said... SoUE - I just didn't like it, flat out. But some kids really got into it. I have to have some smidgen of hope in books I read.

Kiersten said... I thought SoUE was hilarious. But I don't think I'll give it to my daughter until she's twelve or so. I just didn't think this book was much "fun", which would be why I wouldn't give it as a gift.

BBJD said... My son has read the entire Series of Unfortunate Events and finds it very funny. But then he inherited my sense of humor.

Sarah Laurenson said... I thought Lucky's decision about the ashes was handled a bit odd, too. You guys probably discussed this back on comment 80 or so. Seemed like the usual author problem of how to neatly wrap up the book and be done with it. I can relate.

Kiersten said... Yeah, Sarah--suddenly she's willing to let go? I thought it was actually a clever way of getting out of trouble for running away. They can't get mad at you for that, now, can they?

Sarah Laurenson said... That's probably the true reason, K. Seems more logical.

Robin S. said... I agree, Miss K. A clever ruse. I'd have done that. I admired her for her quick thinking.

Evil Editor said... Where was Miles's grandmother when the town got to the caves? Was she among them?

Chris Eldin said... Ultimately, do you guys think this book deserved an award? The most prestigious award for American Children's Lit?

Kiersten said... I don't, Chris.

BuffySquirrel said... I've no idea about the award...what other books were in contention?

Dave F. said... Lucky's "higher power" is her decision to help Miles, who she recognizes as younger and helpless, and take him to the cave to take care of. I'm not sure that counts as a revelatory experience.

BBJD said... I didn't like Lucky's final solution. It felt more like she did what she did because she thought it was the 'grown up' thing to do. Maybe I'm wrong about that. But it bothered me that Lincoln was in town and knew the adults were coming, but he still arrived before the adults. How did he manage that?

Robin S. said... Chris, I don't know all the awards out there for children's lit, but I do think this was a gorgeously told story, with meaning on many levels. I agree it should have received special notice, but if the Newbery is for lit children actually read (and my girls were very bright and big readers - President's Scholars and gifted program kids - and they wouldn't have picked it) - I don't know.

peggy said... About innocent..that is all based on the writers age, in the 50's everykid made up words for body parts and it was just handed down from one generation to the next. My sons never asked me what their body parts were called. You gonna tell a 3 year old it's a scrotum or most men will say, its your balls son. It's generational. My sons are grown now and they tell me they always knew what parts really were, they have encyclopedias. LOL. Didn't your family have made up words for body parts when you were kids? Thats part of the fun of childhood.

Robin S. said... Ha! He might, Bevie! And Peggy, I know what ya mean, but weirdly, our family thought casual words or body parts were nasty. go figure.

BBJD said... In our family, it wasn't the body parts which were nasty. It was the body functions and byproducts. We got slapped for saying poo. I guess that explains why we never read A.A.Milne.

BuffySquirrel said... Made-up names for body parts? Not that I remember!

Evil Editor said... I still call my you-know a piddle wee, especially when I'm hanging with the tough guys at the pool hall.

BuffySquirrel said... It's harder to pretend boys' parts don't exist!

Chris Eldin said... Okay, that's pretty funny, EE!

Robin S. said... A PIDDLE WEE? You are kidding, right? I always heard penis from Latin-word Mom, but when she said it, she said it almost under her breath, as penises basically gave her the creeps.

Kiersten said... EE, does that discussion happen frequently while in the pool hall?

peggy said... No? See, it must be generational thing or maybe family. Or perhaps I am/was out of touch. I remember going to the first health classes, back then girls in one boys in another and we were taught the proper names. Everyone would get all weird about it LOL. But that's all right.

BBJD said... EE, you don't happen to have a cousin named "SpongeBob" by chance?

Dave F. said... There are still euphemisms for those body parts. Kathy Griffen (or Griffeths) just got nailed for crudely saying "dicks" on TV...

BuffySquirrel said... So she can't say "dick" but she can be nailed...?

Kiersten said... I just had a lovely thought imagining that the author finds this book chat and sits down to read it, only to find how the discussion degenerates. I hope she laughs.

Robin S. said... Miss K, I think the topical degeneration and the word scrotum in her novel are inextricably linked, and I bet with the sense of wry humor she displayed in her prose - she'd get an understanding kick out of the discussion. Seriously. I know I would.

Chris Eldin said... EE, just curious since this isn't your genre--how did you pick HPOL for the book chat?

Evil Editor said... I chose it because I heard it was about scrotal sacs.

Chris Eldin said... LOL EE! "Sin Sacs" Get it right!

Evil Editor said...Also, I try to choose books that award committees or reviewers liked, figuring that improves the chances it's not a complete bomb.

BuffySquirrel said...EE, how's that working out so far? Cos a lot of the books have been duds, imo.

Evil Editor said... Possibly because you prefer one genre, and we read a variety?

BuffySquirrel said... I certainly used to restrict my reading to one genre, but of late that has not been as true. One of my favourite books of those I read in 2008 was Sarah Waters' "Affinity". If you'd asked me if I'd love a book centring around mediumship, I'd've said "Of course not!". So I don't think it's so much my closed mind as not-very-good books :).

BBJD said... Buffy, I think you just have extremely high standards.

Kiersten said... It's not you, it's them, right Buffy?

Robin S. said... Anyway, I'm glad I bought the book. Yet another book I wouldn't have read were it not for these chats. My 3 favorites so far have been Perfect Circle (by a landslide), followed by this one, followed by the second one.

Evil Editor said... I liked To Say Nothing of the Dog, Perfect Circle... Romance lovers may have been inclined toward Bet Me.

Robin S. said... I wasn't inclined toward Bet Me.

BuffySquirrel said... I loved "To Say Nothing of the Dog". I bought my dad a copy! Now that's book love, as he's worse than me :D.

Kiersten said... Wait, EE, I thought you LOVED Twilight? Weren't you waiting in line for the premiere wearing your EDWARD FOREVER tee-shirt?

BuffySquirrel said... I wanted to give Twilight negative stars....

Robin S. said... I did enjoy To Say Nothing...buff, but I didn't love it. For that matter, I didn't love the Warren novel I hosted. I liked it. I admired it. But I didn't love it. Still, it's good to broaden out, I think.