October, 2008In the admixture of wilderness and elegant society that was 1826 Kentucky, Jeremiah Beaumont, a brilliant, imaginative lawyer, stood trial for murdering his benefactor and father figure, the politician Colonel Cassius Fort. Now all the documents are in hand to reconstruct Beaumont's life story - his crime, his trial, his ultimate sin and punishment - and the historian-narrator of World Enough and Time sets about doing just that. He uncovers a burning idealist's search for purpose and his rabid rejection, like other great Promethean heroes of the American mythology, of conventional heroism. Based on the famous murder case known as the Kentucky Tragedy, World Enough and Time is, like its precursor All the King's Men, a fictional wonder that personifies history, philosophy, politics, and passion.
Warren is the only person to have won the Pulitzer prize in both fiction and poetry, won the National Book Award, and was named America's first Poet Laureate.
Evil Editor said...I was just following a few of the links in the Wikipedia article [The Kentucky Tragedy]. This guy who Jeremiah killed was a major player in politics.
ril said...Yes. I'm still skimming the article; quite an intrigue. And he's the first Jereboam I've encountered that I couldn't drink out of.
Robin S. said...Hi, EE, and Ha ril! EE, did you enjoy reading this novel?
Evil Editor said...I did enjoy it. The writing was almost poetic at times. It was more work than most novels, but rewarding, possibly because of that.
Robin S. said...I enjoyed it as well. It was poetic, and spoke through the story about the human condition.
freddie said...I read on the back cover that Warren received Pulitzers for both literature and poetry.
ril said...I found it a little hard to get going. Started to wonder if the role of the editor in the fifties was to add words...
Evil Editor said...It was slow at the beginning, though when I go back now and read the beginning it seems less so. Today it might start with chapter 2. With the first part of chapter 1 as an introduction or even epilogue.
Robin S. said...I agree, EE - and what makes me grin when I'm admitting that - is that a very short time ago, I'd have disagreed with you. I think the beginning as epilogue would have worked beautifully.
Evil Editor said...As a character study of Jeremiah Beaumont, it's engrossing and at times astounding.
Robin S. said...Yes, I agree - it was at times astounding.
Meri said...I love words and well-written literature, but this book was as painful as a boil on my butt. I waded, I slogged, I wondered how the hell the people of the 50's could find this book a "good read"?
Robin S. said...Hey, Meri- I thought you'd love it, girl! Did the beginning bore you? Because I thought it was the kind of novel that grows on a person, after they've given it some time. Another reason why I don't think (and God am I sorry Mr. Warren, because I think you're a true genius) - I don't think this novel would sell today. I'm not saying I'm happy about that. In fact, it makes me sad.
Evil Editor said...Is it really any harder to get through than Faulkner? Moby Dick? Dickens?
BuffySquirrel said...I stuck at page 37 and never got any further. "Scum gathers on ponds, the water is brackish in the well, the cow goes dry, tempers are short, the husband notices that his old wife has lost her teeth and sags in the tits...and all the old meaning of life is lost like water spilled in the ankle-deep dust." Lines like that, really.
ril said...I find Dickens a pretty easy read. I found Moby Dick a bit heavy...
BuffySquirrel said...I haven't tried Faulkner. Moby Dick is virtually unreadable; bad Dickens is unbearable, although I love the good stuff.
Meri said...Ok, so it's easier to read than Faulkner. It was just so frickin' detailed and I never bonded with Jerry or Rach, so by page 200 whatever, when they married I really still didn't care about either of them. For all of Jer's musing about "Justice" and "truth", I thought he seemed egregiously misguided.
Evil Editor said...He was misguided, but also duped.
Meri said...Duped by Rachel, or Fort?
Evil Editor said...Duped by Wilkie and Scroggs. I don't think it's clear whether Rachel was in on it.
Robin said...I agree, EE. Beaumont was duped - as of course was the man on whom he was based.
Evil Editor said...Interesting that in the real case, there was no escape from prison. And to me, that part seemed concocted, yet in lit fic, I wouldn't have expected the author to do that. The way it really played out was more litfic-like than the fictionalized version; the escape seemed more like what an adventure/thriller writer would do.
Robin S. said...I also wondered why Warren took him out of prison, let him escape, when that isn't what happened. But I think it was too show a few things -
---in a way, he was already dead, and in that living death, he found a kind of peace and inner freedom.
---to show once and for all that Rachel was a fucking loon.
Robin S. said...I thought it would be interesting to discuss the 'evolution' in fiction (literary fiction in specific, but I think it works in other genres as well). The difference in the reading of this novel, based on historical 'facts' (whatever they are), and the time and, basically, dedication it took to get this reading going: it was rough sledding at first- because the point of it all was, not lost, but certainly broadly stated. What we now call backstory- but what I really always thought of as the entry into the world of the novel at hand...
Phoenix said...I think it all goes back to what we learn in Lit class - looking at a work from the context of when it was created and comparing to what the world view is now. I'm interested in whether it's the art that dictates the changes in how a work is written and received or whether it's the audience.
Robin S. said...I agree, Phoenix - context is everything. Well, that and a well-written novel. I think this was a beautifully written novel. Buffy mentioned Jeremiah was a misogynist. I think just the opposite - but you have to suspend judgment until you've allowed yourself to enter the man's mind and life.
BuffySquirrel said...No, I thought the AUTHOR was a misogynist.
Robin S. said...Why, Buff? I didn't see that. I think that was narration in the sense of the times. The early 1820s; in the backwoods.
BuffySquirrel said...Somehow that doesn't make it less misogynist. Anyway, I've had enough of that crap in my life; I don't wish to read more :).
Meri said...The author (as Buf'sqrl infers) may have had issues with women, but I thought the portrayal of men's attitudes toward females was at the going rate for the times (1820's). It was a "man's world" then.?!
freddie said...It was. Absolutely.
BuffySquirrel said...When isn't it a man's world? But I don't care to be so crudely reminded of it!
Robin said...On page 323 of my copy, there's a scene during the trial, and the word 'truth' is bandied about. And then Jeremiah thinks...
That is the thing to fear, he thought, not the lie the world tells as a lie, but the lie the world holds as its truth.Phoenix said...Interesting that "truth" is such a theme here, considering how the author bandied about the facts...
Blogger ril said...Can it be said the author bandied about the facts if it is a work of fiction?
Phoenix said...Fiction based on fact always feels like a cheat to me. Especially when the author is trying to sum up the experience and portray it as the "human condition." If they're going to skew history to their own 'truth' then why not create a pristine version of 'truth'?
freddie said...But to me, writing your own truth is the point of writing a novel, even if it's based on a true story. Otherwise, stick to nonfiction.
Meri said...OH, BTW. I skipped major portions after pg 250 or so. How did Rachel bite the dust? I just read the 1st line of each paragraph from the mid-section until the last 10 pages.
Evil Editor said...Spoiler alert.
She killed herself.
Meri said...Gasp! I'll bet it was done in a weasly way too, poison? What page was that on? Might be worth going back to read ? Unless the author changed up, I didn't find that there was much character or development granted Rachel.
Robin S. said...Meri- pages 452 and 453 in my book.
freddie said...The wiki article stated they tried to commit suicide together, and both succumbed to their wounds soon after. But I think Jeremiah was still hung for the murder.
BuffySquirrel said...Well, they still guillotined people who'd committed suicide during the Terror, so why not hang him, even if dead?
ril said...He was hanged just before his wounds took him. So they served their justice just in time.
freddie said...They had to get their ounce of blood.
Robin S. said...Yeah in real life they hurried to hang him even though he was dying. Gotta love those bureaucrats.
BuffySquirrel said...I gave up on the main character when he refused the inheritance. Sheesh, he could always have changed his name back after the old man died.
Robin S. said...Buff, there was an entire code of honor and the desire to be a 'gentleman'. It screws people up, this life template laid on a person. Superimposed. That was one of the themes of the novel, I believe.
BuffySquirrel said...That's almost certainly true, Robin, but I felt as if the novel expected me to know that, rather than introducing it as an idea that I needed to understand his actions.
Evil Editor said...Note that Jerry attempted to kill Fort through the code of honor--a duel. Fort refused.
Meri said...Yes, an honorable duel to the death was Jer's 1st choice, but since the seduction scene between Rach and Fort was never given, I could hardly summon the need for her reputation to be upheld. Plus I didn't like her, from what little I was given to go on.
freddie said...I wonder if it's possible for people outside the South (in America) to really 'get' this novel in its entirety. There's a whole code of behavior Southerners are taught to follow to which many Northerners just aren't exposed. It's almost like Catholics vs. non-Catholics. There's just a whole subtext there non-Catholics may not get about being Catholic.
BuffySquirrel said...Well, freddie, we have no chance of understanding it if the author doesn't even try to explain it :).
Evil Editor said...I think it's explained. Shown, not told.
BuffySquirrel said...The effects were shown, EE, but I didn't feel the motivations were. But I found the book very difficult to relate to, so am probably not the best judge.
Robin S. said...Hey freddie, I think after reading this - you actually do learn a lot about the times, the inhabitants and the customs of the people here. Some of this stuff just goes on and on. The family honor thing is big with rednecks. I know this for a fact - and it seems especially prevalent in those - like a few of the characters in the novel - who have no honor to be defending. I think it says a lot, as well, about what Jeremiah was - who he was trying to be, although a part of him was fighting himself all along the way.
Sylvia said...I don't know - there are a lot of books that focus on Southern ethics that I don't "get" in terms of they aren't internalised, but I understand and sympathise with the characters and the storyline. But Jeremiah didn't seem about honour, he just seemed .... I don't know. Soggy.
freddie said...I actually am a little familiar with Southern customs, as one of my grandmothers was a New Orleans debutante, but I was just curious as to whether someone from the North—with no exposure to Southern code—might 'get' the novel. Good to know he got a lot of that stuff across.
Meri said...Ah, I was totally tuned in to the "southern way of life" as I cut my eyeteeth on GWTW. I used to think it was a kinda cool code.
Robin S. said...I think it's worth a mention that as a Kentuckian, Warren perfectly captured the feeling of living in the territory/new state. Page 6 of my copy:
"Eastward, cutting off the past, rose the wall of the mountains, and westward the wilderness stretched away forever with its terror and promise. The people had come here to stay, and they would stay."That really is the feeling of the state, especially when you're down in it, and not in a city. Eloquently stated.
Evil Editor said...I kept expecting Rachel to confess that her stillborn child's father really was a slave. Interesting that the author didn't plant that possibility. Also, Jeremiah seemed extremely careful not to leave clues, I was surprised they immediately pegged him as the murderer. Yet that part was true. Just some random thoughts.
ril said...In the Wikipedia article, it said Jez had told someone he was going to do it and they grassed him up. Was it the same in the book?
Evil Editor said...I'll answer when I figure out what grassed up means.
BuffySquirrel said...Snitched on. Betrayed. Sold out.
Robin S. said...Jeremiah and the narrator spoke a lot about striking out and leaving. Living more naturally - just getting away from people and being himself - Jeremiah mentioned that more than once. And when you see a character in an American novel wanting to go 'west', that usually means they want to reinvent themselves, or find themselves, or be left alone. I think that's related to the theme I mentioned above. Any takers on that one?
ril said...In Grapes of Wrath, they wanted to find work. And food.
BuffySquirrel said...Eh, going West to reinvent yourself? But wherever you go, there you are!
Robin S. said...Well, true ril. I'm just talking in generalities - sorry. For instance, when a character goes south, there's usually trouble. (I can vouch for that one, by the way.) I'm just saying that directions and seasons are mental markers.
Phoenix said...I agree about the mental markers, Robin.
Meri said...Jer shoulda hit the road. And to think that this book was written only 6 yrs or so before "On The Road"
BuffySquirrel said...Yeah, this book and "On the Road" could totally hit the road together....
ril said...I only read 8 pages -- not a judgment on the book, 8 is all I had -- but the opening didn't feel contemporary to the fifties. I'd guess his peers would be the likes of Steinbeck, Hemingway, Salinger?
Robin S. said...Yep, ril they were his contemporaries. But some of us are, um, wordier than others. He writes this story as a grand old man of the region would have told it, in my opinion. Not this is 'the Southern way'. About a decade later, give a few years, two excellent Nobels by Southerners came out - and they were short and power-packed. The Moviegoer by Walker Percy, and To Kill A Mockingbird, by Harper Lee. My guess is, you've read both?
ril said...I've read To Kill a Mockingbird. Not The Moviegoer.
freddie said...Ooh, loved To Kill a Mockingbird. I'm going to have to pick up the other one.
BuffySquirrel said...I've read Mockingbird, but not the other one. I rarely read literary fiction. I prefer a book to be about something more than just language. Mockingbird isn't like ANYTHING.
freddie said...I think TKAM had to be shorter because it was told through a child's point of view. I think literary fiction now is . . . less wordy and the pace tends to be faster.
Robin S. said...I think in literary fiction, in general, there's more of an active engagement from the beginning of the novel, now, because there has to be, unless you're already a name, in my opinion.
ril said...Good Literary Fiction is always about more than just language; bad Literary Fiction is about less.
BuffySquirrel said...In which case I've rarely seen any good literary fiction on any shelf.
Meri said...I thought Warren was waaay too wordy. Maybe his fame had gone to his head by this point. Good author gone bad Syndrome?
Robin S. said...I don't think true lit fic is about only the language. I think those novels are written by poseurs - and I think they'll be quickly forgotten.
BuffySquirrel said...Yeah, there seem to be a hell of a lot of those poseurs, though.
Robin S. said...I agree, Buff. Word orgasms for the author fond of the sound of himself, but no meaning. I'm hoping their day is close to being over. It turned me away from reading for a while.
Phoenix said...I think a lot of contemporary literary fiction tries too hard to be something more than what it is. Few lit fic authors, IMO, today write to tell the story. They write to become required reading in Fine Arts studies. I find it hard to connect with most of today's published lit fic for that reason.
freddie said...So we've got a couple of readers who were wondering why the hell Max Perkins wasn't available to edit this novel. ; )
Evil Editor said...There is a "genre" known as southern literature. Faulkner, Steinbeck, Warren are nothing like Hemingway and Salinger, who sound almost contemporary by comparison.
Robin S. said...Yeah, EE, you're right. (I know you already know that.) Short or long, brief or wordy, it's distinct in outlook on life, and in its language usage.
BuffySquirrel said...Well, I got 37 pages in. When I tried to read Don Quixote, I think I managed two pages.
Evil Editor said...You missed the part where the windmills come to life and attack.
BuffySquirrel said...Damnit!
ril said...Don Quixote was written a little earlier, of course. I read it in High School and seem to remember enjoying it. I read the English translation, though.
Meri said...I've read a bit a Quix and I do tend to grant Cervantes and the translator a break, since it was written 500 years ago. I seriously found the pacing of this work to be profoundly retarded, etc. I almost get the feeling that the whole story was too purposely contrived. The plot line (and the art work on my "Book Club" edition) were meant to sound titillating and salacious to bored 50's housewives, in a way.
Robin S. said...I got into the novel once I got past the first pages. But I do wonder if it were shortened, for effect and for removal of the occasionally extraneous, if I would have liked it better. I'm not sure. But there was one part that I really couldn't believe Warren glossed over. He didn't describe the attack on Beaumont, and his head being cut off, until it was a kind of an 'oh yeah, by the way' bit. That honestly disappointed me.
Phoenix said...Do we disdain wordy, language-rich novels these days because as a culture we have far more distractions and less time to read than our parents did, so we automatically resent anything that puts greater demands on our time? Or is that art form truly a lesser art? This goes back to my earlier question: Is it the audience dictating what art is?
ril said...I think the audience dictates what sells.
Robin S. said...I take your point, phoenix, and I see ril's as well - and I think they're married.
Robin S. said...EE, do you think of lit fic as a genre? I've heard that more and more. I always thought of literature, both contemporary and 'classic', as simply those novels that had something to say about the human condition - that said it more honestly, and more thoughtfully, than the other fiction surrounding them.
Phoenix said...Awwk! Now THAT's a scary definition. I'm so sorry, Robin, but that reeks of the basest snobbery.
Robin S. said...Hey phoenix - What I mean is -pick up the 'airport novel du jour' and read it, and the next hour after you finish it, it was like the words never entered your mind. Versus - reading a wonderful novel with resonant prose and a resonant theme and story.
Phoenix said...Rob, you're still holding a whole genre up as "the best" art form. Remember, Shakespeare was a hack in his time... Kind of like George Lucas today. If you love something enough, you can spin the criticism to make it seem "worthy" of praise. Just look at the genre fiction being taught in universities today - everything from Star Trek to Jackie Collins.
BuffySquirrel said...Plenty of genre work has a lot to say about the human condition, but could never get classed as lit fic. I think it depends on the wordy, language-rich novel. I don't automatically find them unreadable. Erm. Honest! *waves "War and Peace" in evidence.
Robin S. said...Hey Buff-I see what you mean, and I disagree with whomever decided to subtract genre fiction from literary fiction. For instance, I consider Poe literary, and Ellmore Leonard. And Dennis Lehane.
Meri said...I actually read an ARC of one Lehane's early works about 10 yrs ago. I don't think I've read (I've seen Mystic River and the other one) him since, but I agree he has a way with descriptions and a world view that make him literary, Robin. I do think I should probably give WPW (maybe King's Men?) another go, in all fairness. But I'm pretty sure he's just not my type of author. Trying to view this as "current fiction" with an arty twist back in the 50's makes me wonder how many authors have joined that list in the last 20 years? Stryon? Updyke? Larry McMurtry?
Robin S. said...Seriously, phoenix - I just love well-written fiction - and for me, for it to be well-written, it has to speak to more than just the immediate story and circumstance. I'm actually not a fan of literary fiction being considered its own genre, and I'm wondering if that sectioning off is why we get such schlock posing as lit fic now. I really do.
Meri said...Agree with the comments on lit fict having that "lasting impression" type of linger in the reader's mind. I think it's okay for a person to be snobby and elitist about 1 or 2 things. Seems like most people are extremely prideful and protective about way more than 1 or 2 things, but I do think it should be limited!!! So my point of snobbery is "good writing". I chose it long ago and I'm stickin with it. And I admit that I aspire to the role (My personal pinnacle of a perfect life) with great earnest, yet I grow old . . . I could never, ever be snobby or elitist about shoes, though. But I understand that many successful women harbor that secret belief (i.e. Angels wear Prada). Imelda Marcos comes to mind. Hope I'm not boxing myself into some elitist hell, here, guys and gals. . .
ril said...I think Literary Fiction as a classification does cover a multitude of sins.
Robin S. said...ril, What sins do you see?
BuffySquirrel said...Adultery. It's practically de rigueur in lit fic!
ril said...Well, what I mean by that is that the term often seems to be a catch-all for "non-genre" fiction. The stuff within that classification covers a very broad range, just as Science Fiction covers a very broad range from the greats like Asimov and Clark to Star Trek novelisations and beyond... It's not all the same.
Evil Editor said...We would rather read a well-drawn comic book than gaze at the Mona Lisa.
ril said...Not me. That chick is hot. Sorry. Was that a bit mysogonistic?
BuffySquirrel said...I've seen the Mona Lisa. It's not that great.
BuffySquirrel said...ril, dear, here's your bait back.
freddie said...Well, no. Reading the comic book might actually take more time. I don't see why they have to be mutually exclusive, but it's perceived that way. I'm just saying that I think the market does have an effect on lit fic, when so much of it gets released to resounding silence from the masses. Maybe for good reason, maybe not.
Phoenix said...I've hung comic book art that spoke to MY perception of the human condition more profoundly than the Mona Lisa ever did. Yet, I can see the beauty in the Mona, too.
Evil Editor said...People flock to see the Mona Lisa because it was painted by a master. Not because they actually appreciate the artist's talent. Likewise, when reading great fiction, you may not appreciate it but you can still get the feeling you're in the hands of someone who knows what he/she is doing, as compared to when you're reading crap that will be forgotten tomorrow.
ril said...True. I've read stuff where I've thought "I wish I could write as well as her/him", yet still I never finished the book.
sylvia said...That's interesting. I don't think this has ever happened to me. But it could be that when I don't finish a book, I transfer the blame by blaming the author's writing.
BuffySquirrel said...Yes, you know when you're reading a book by someone who knows what they're doing. And then there's Penn Warren.
Evil Editor said...Hey, you read one chapter.
BuffySquirrel said...C'mon, EE--agents and editors read one page! if that!
Robin S. said...Buffy, I don't think this is Warren's best work. Read "All the King's Men." It's also based on fact - a corrupt and dangerous asshole in the deep South, different era. Amazing novel. Truly.
freddie said...I think buffy's right about genre fiction, though. It's so often relegated to an ugly step-child status. And much of it is, in fact, literary. Just read Gene Wolfe.
Evil Editor said...There are, of course, those who find Gene Wolfe impenetrable.
freddie said... Sure. But no more so than a lot of lit fic. I think a lot of it boils down to taste.
Robin S. said...I don't know the name Gene Wolfe.
freddie said...Gene Wolfe is a writer of fantasy fiction. I don't think he's hugely known outside of the fantasy genre . . . which is a shame.
Robin S. said...freddie, What novel of his should I read?
ril said...Gene Wolfe helped to make Pringles what they are today. Seriously.
Evil Editor said...If you read one Wolfe, you'll have to read at least three. It's that trilogy thing.
freddie said...Hmmm . . .He's done a few series, and I've only read those. I haven't read his stand-alone novels yet. You could start with Sword & Citadel, but it's the start of a series (four novels). I haven't read it, but Peace is one of his more major stand-alone novels and is highly regarded. But since I haven't read it yet, I can't recommend it. Besides, you need to catch up on your Neil Gaiman. ; )
Robin S. said...Got a Wolfe or a Gaiman coming up on the booklist, EE?
BuffySquirrel said...Never mind Gene Wolfe. Read UK Le Guin's "The Dispossessed".
freddie said...You know, I haven't read UK Le Guin yet. I've got Left Hand of Darkness sitting in my bedroom, waiting to be read. I do want to read Dispossessed.
BuffySquirrel said...I don't think LHoD is as good as it's cracked up to be. But an interesting read. If you like the world, it's explored again in her short story "Coming of Age in Karhide".
Evil Editor said...You can't abandon Sean Stewart for these others. Once you find someone you like, stick around awhile.
freddie said...Hey, I'm not asking anyone to abandon Sean Stewart! Maybe just fool around a little with someone else . . .; )
Robin S. said...Sean Stewart. Absolutely. I should have mentioned him as one of the genre-busters, actually. I still think of him as a Book Chat find, and somehow, they are separated in my mind. I consider Perfect Circle one of the best novels I have ever read. I bought copies for both daughters. Meri- I agree. Lehane is excellent. His worldview speaks volumes about the human condition, yet he never proselytizes.
Robin S. said...EE, be honest, please. If you'd read that first page, and it came to you from an unknown author...
Evil Editor said...I'd have read on. It's a great hook.
BuffySquirrel said...Eh, it's not a bad first para.
Robin S. said...I like the way the first para ends with..
To whom was he writing...The answer is easy. He was writing to us.
sylvia said...Still catching up on comments but I want to say: I haven't finished the book - I'm hoping that you guys will inspire me to push on. A primary issue for me is that I just do not like Jeremiah at all.
Evil Editor said...Think of him as your brother. Then maybe you'll have some compassion for him.
Phoenix said...Not in this day and age. I'd be slapping some sense into that boy were he my brother...I can understand and appreciate the context of the time in which it was written and the time it was written about. Doesn't mean I have to like it. I'm with buffy there. I think it all goes back to what we learn in Lit class - looking at a work from the context of when it was created and comparing to what the world view is now.
sylvia said...Robin wrote: Did the beginning bore you? Because I thought it was the kind of novel that grows on a person, after they've given it some time. I found the beginning slow (and yes, I think today the story would simply start later) but I didn't mind it so much. It felt like a prologue and I felt that the action was going to pick up - which it did. But I found myself very apathetic about it. I read on because I wanted to get further into the book on principle, not because I cared.
Meri wrote: I never bonded with Jerry or Rach, so by page 200 whatever, when they married I really still didn't care about either of them.
sylvia said...I will give the book another go. I hadn't read the background information and so I didn't know the facts that this was based on - to be honest, that's already made it more interesting to me.
Evil Editor said...Part of the reason no one feels any sympathy for Jeremiah is because so few read the whole book. Members of an opposing political party tricked him into believing Fort claimed Jerry's wife had sex with a slave. Given the times, it's like a politician today claiming his opponent's wife had sex with a horse. Except then you couldn't go on national TV and deny it.
BuffySquirrel said...Fair enough, EE, but to read that far, many of us needed to sympathise with him to some extent already.
sylvia said...But that wouldn't make the opponent a sympathetic character for me. It might make me have more tolerance for his actions, especially if they are extreme. But I disliked Jeremiah before anything exciting happened to him, not as a result of his later actions.
Robin S. said...About Jeremiah - he does get more interesting and sympathetic, and pitiful really, the longer you read and see the box he was put in, long before he died.
Robin S. said...ril, I think of non-genre fiction as still being genre-fied- women's fiction, commercial fiction, upmarket book club fiction, literary fiction. I don't agree with that - (not that anyone gives a crap about my disagreeing).
freddie said...I give a crap. I agree with you. The whole 'women's fiction' thing makes me want to tear my hair out.
sylvia said...Agreed!
Robin S. said...Women's fiction - the only thing I can think is that this is now a genre because more women are buying books and reading - so they're being written for. Is that it?
BuffySquirrel said...Women have been the major consumers of fiction for longer than there's been a "women's fiction" genre. So frankly I don't understand why it exists at all.
freddie said...Exactly. And I think the public's mindset is that 'women's fiction' is somehow inferior to 'real' fiction. Like it's the Lifetime movie equivalent to The Dark Knight, or whatever. Don't know if that makes sense.
ril said...It's all about marketing, isn't it? Aren't the classifications in the bookshop just to help people find what they want, and what they want is generally books a lot like the ones they've already read...?
Blogger BuffySquirrel said...That can't be it. Most of what I read is crap, and I desperately want non-crap! lol
ril said...Then you want aisle 3 where the non-crap section is...
Robin S. said...Yeah, ril, I agree about the marketing. I like to go in a bookstore and take my time and wander. I don't like being walked to an area. I liked it better when fiction was just fiction - yes- the genres were separated (I've always loved a good mystery, so i appreciated that) but I see what you mean.
BuffySquirrel said...Is that kinda like aisle 13, the one you can never find?
ril said...No, it's there. It just seems to get longer the more you walk...
sylvia said...I think there's some weird stuff happening with genres - chick lit, women's fiction, very adult young adult books. It's a form of marketing obviously. "Here, go to this section of the bookstore and buy me! You are my target audience!" Which I don't usually mind but it seems terribly divisive and making it more difficult for people to explore and push their limits. As an example, I'd not read very much young adult fiction before - I just assumed it would be simplistic and moralistic. I've been catching up recently and really enjoying some great books - which I would never have found in the book store. I've found them by word of mouth and it helps a lot that I have a teen son that loves to read - but if I didn't, I'd be missing out. If those books were all in "fiction", I would have found them.
Robin S. said...I agree, Sylvia. Just call it fiction and let ME look through and decide what to buy. Bookstores are screwing up - because they are run like, forgive me, businesses, rather than as a haven for lovers of the written word. I used to spend a lot more time in them than I do now. I miss that.
Meri said...I worked in bookstores for 10 years (albeit awhile ago) and overall I think I've done a pretty good job of avoiding "crap" and maybe some luck. I also followed a "line of reason" in making my selections, over the years. I had a go with Bruce Chatwin and I thought he had a lovely writing style and much of it was actually non-fiction! I found him in the travel section and was very sad when he died.
freddie said...He did The Songlines, didn't he? That was a lovely read.
Meri said...Yes, "Songlines". I found "In Patagonia" first and enjoyed that, back when I actually thought I might get to the bottom of S. America in my travels. Haven't yet.
Evil Editor said...Okay, enough moaning and whining and pawing, I'm off on a dog walk.
BuffySquirrel said...We weren't pawing!
ril said...Uh, yeah, sorry about that pawing.
Robin S. said...EE, enjoy being walked by the weres! Hope you don't mind if we stay just a bit longer?
BuffySquirrel said...Now I have to decide which of 89 books to read next.
freddie said...Were we whining, EE? Sorry.
ril said...I don't think I've ever ready anything that I thought was just totally crap. I've read stuff I didn't think was great...
freddie said...I usually find something of merit in everything I read. Which is probably why I'll never be a professional editor in trade publishing. No cracks allowed on that, anyone. ; )
Actually, I should say almost anything I read. I tried The Bridges of Madison County and that truly was crap. I'm going to have to try In Patagonia.
sylvia said...Eat, Love, Pray is the most recent book that I can think of that I thought was utter crap. Sorry to anyone who liked it but I really wanted to just throw it across the room. I read a lot more of it than I should of as it was a present from my mother - who later admitted she hadn't actually read it.
ril said...If I were a smartass I'd say you should've tried Eat Pray Love instead...
Robin S. said...ril, you're a stinker in the best way.
Robin S. said...Sometimes where I am dictates what I read - ex - airplane reading, if I didn't bring a book - I buy something at the airport to keep my brain soppy, if nothing else, during the flight. But I have to tell you, especially since i've started writing again, I do think some of this stuff is crap.
sylvia said...I didn't really just write "should of", did I? Oh my god.
BuffySquirrel said...Hmm. The random number generator thinks I should read "Sharpe's Tiger".
BuffySquirrel said...I hated "Homicide My Own". It's probably better if you buy into that reincarnation stuff.
ril said...I struggled through "Homicide My Own", but I thought it got better as it went on. Or I got desensitised, not sure...
Robin S. said...buff, I could've easily been able to say I liked Homicide My Own. I don't believe in reincarnation, but I thought it was handled well in the novel. The thing that tripped me up was the colloquialisms - they drove me nuts. Normally, they don't, but in this one, they did.
Robin S. said...Buff, do you really have 89 books waiting in the wings to read? you've got me beat! Sylvia- that was a hoot. Meri- you've got me intersted in that guy.
BuffySquirrel said...Those are just the ones I have listed on GoodReads :). See, I had a birthday not long ago, and there are a lot of charity shops around here, and....oh heck, I'm Sqrl and I'm a Book Addict!
Robin S. said...Buff- thank god you're an addict! The best kind, in my opinion.
Whirlochre said...Just logged on to pick up my email only to find you guys live. So — a quick hi & bye.
sylvia said...Someone recommended Caine's Mutiny to me - was it someone here by any chance? I bought it used from Amazon despite having books on my shelf yet to read but now I have NO IDEA who recommended it or what the context was or anything. I am enjoying it though - I think I'll finish it before going after Jeremiah again.
BuffySquirrel said...Jeremiah has to go back to the library. I've already renewed him at least twice.
Robin S. said...Know what scares me? I think you can write a good novel, maybe a wonderful novel, and it won't go anywhere. At all.
freddie said...Yep, that's the risk.
sylvia said...You could say that about some of Vonnegut's stuff.
Meri said...Robin, I share your fear!!!
Robin S. said...I think because I'm about to send my baby into the world, I'm getting the jitters. Anyone else?
sylvia said...My draft of a novel just had it's first serious proof read. She said it was a skeleton and I needed to flesh it out. So I'm trying to push aside other projects so I can really throw myself at this. It's scary.
sylvia said...ARGH. Its. See what happens if you guys have me on a chat before I've been to the pub? My grammar goes all to hell. :P
BuffySquirrel said...eh, if it's a skeleton, it's just right for Halloween, no?
Robin S. said...It is scary. I think when a person writes a novel, you are working to speak to people, and how that writing is received is gonna matter to you, even if you have to put on a mask and play pretend.
Meri said...Agree! It is like exposing one's neck to a vampire.
