April, 2009Evil Editor said...The book comes with its own discussion questions, so if one of them sounds intriguing . .
Robin S. said...I didn't read the questions - I prefer to have my own, to be honest.
Evil Editor said... Theory: Russell saw the photo and then wrote the book. Like a writing exercise.
Robin S. said...The photo is evocative, as is/was the era. I suppose that could happen, although my guess is she's been interested in the seminal events of the era, and worked through a way of unfolding them, and maybe the picture was a part of that.
sylvia said...I like the writing but I'm feeling very frustrated at the fact/fiction mix. It bugs me not to know what is real and what is simply the author's version of what could have happened. Even things like that photo - I felt like I should be going to the library to find the original to find out who the two women on foot really were.
Evil Editor said...Maybe it's not known who they were.
sylvia said...I hope it's not known who they are. If it is known and neither is named Shanklin, then I'd be annoyed. If one is named Shanklin, then I'd feel like I should be searching for information about her, to find out how close it is to the author's rendition.
Robin S. said...I think she used the name Shanklin after a teacher. (I always read the author's notes/credits first.)
sylvia said...I love the writing style and I'm more than half in love with Lawrence but the desire to understand the detail (and feeling somewhat inadequate because I don't know which scenes are based on well-known history) means I'm never really getting into the book.
Evil Editor said...I got the impression the history was not fiction, that her take is more accurate than what appears in some history books. She read numerous Lawrence biographies. The acknowledgments at the end convinced me. And she's well-known for extensive research of her books.
Dave F. said...I thought of "Rosencrantz and Guildenstern" because Agnes is merely the observer to history, the chance observer to the Great War to End All Wars, the influenza of '18, the roarings and the depression. She is only important as the observer. It's like a history of a grandmother, the family tale.
sylvia said...She is only important as the observer. But she's much less trustworthy than an actual observer would be. We know she's making things up because it sounds good. I just don't know which bits (maybe it's obvious to others).
Dave F. said...I too, liked the style. I was comfortable reading it. My only pick was the font hurt my eyes. (it's called Bembo)...
Robin S. said...I kind of liked the font Dave- and the history of the font in the back of the book. Kind of felt 'musty' and historical when reading, which worked, all things considered.
Dave F. said...But the font made my eyes hurt as I read it. I find it hard to focus on when I read.
sylvia said...I didn't notice the font at all :) I love things like the Flashman series but I feel like the author went out of his way to make sure that we could see what was known history and what was "Flashman's bizarre view of events" through both the narrative and the extensive footnotes. I guess, the problem for me is that there are real quotes from Churchhill in the book and there are made-up references of things he could have said but didn't. And because I don't know which are which, I don't feel like I can relax and let myself simply enjoy the story.
Evil Editor said...If it's a conversation between Agnes and a character, it's made up. Otherwise it's real.
sylvia said...So when Agnes is at dinner listening to Winston talk to Lawrence, that's real?
Evil Editor said...I assume it's based on what actually came out of that meeting. Whether what they said was taken down I don't know. Churchill's bodyguard, who's a character in the book, wrote a memoir which Russell read.
sylvia said...Oh, I'm thrilled that the bodyguard is real. That's made my day :)
Dave F. said...I think the history is accurate but the meetings and Agnes may be just a device. This is a nice way to begin to understand the SWEEP of historical movements. Please don't take offense, but the Brits never did leave a colonial nation that didn't go bonkers and haywire.
Robin S. said...Of course Agnes and the meetings are a fictional device! She blended in pretty well, though. I have to admit, I don't normally read historical fiction, but Agnes's personality - I've seen it many times in older female relatives - the ones I liked.
Sylvia said...I read a biography that had an interesting device - when the verb was "said" it was a citation and when it was "says" it was paraphrased or remembered. I know it sounds silly but I was very comfortable with that because I knew where I stood. Clearly I have issues :)
Dave F. said...There's a new book out late last year on Churchill that is like the definitive source for quotes. I bought it as a gift and didn't give it away.
sylvia said...See Dave, if I had that book, then I'd take twice as long reading this one because I'd be looking up every word he said ;)
Dave F. said...The book is "Churchill by Himself: The Definitive Collection of Quotations" by Richard Langworth. The only famous quote from Chruchill I remember her writing about is "Blood, toil, tears and sweat" Which is one of the best political speeches of all time.
sylvia said...I liked the style. I like the character. My heart is bleeding for her because it's so clear her attraction to Karl is going to end up in heartbreak.
Dave F. said...Karl the cad, left out of the Circle of the powerful and sneaking in the back door via a dachshund.
Robin S. said...How many men have we all known like that? Ass. He wouldn't help her one time because he had a new suit on. And she said "I called for you, Karl". Don't get me started on the realism of that one.
sylvia said...To Karl's credit, he's clearly using her but at least he's talking to her as an adult. Bear in mind I'll probably change my mind when she gets back to the hotel - I'm not bothered about spoilers but I might still like him more than he deserves :)
BuffySquirrel said...Gah. I buy the book, read the book, remember to turn up for the chat, and my connection melts down....I love the idea that the book was inspired by that photo.
Evil Editor said...Buffy has the floor.
BuffySquirrel said...No, EE, I'm on the floor sobbing, because I've been looking forward to this all week and I can't fucking post or read the posts most of the time.
Ahem. Enough with the self-sorries.
sylvia said...Buffy, just write. EE can sort it out in the edit (and I'm interested in your view!)
BuffySquirrel said...I don't see the need to pick Agnes out as an observer; most people are observers. We, the readers, are observers. So I'm not sure it's a useful comment. I actually felt comfortable with the way the fictional narrative and the history meshed; that doesn't often happen for me.
Robin S. said...For me, I had to almost forget the history part being insinuated into the story - and just read as though I were reading pure fiction. Difficult, though, at times. "Please! Call me Winston." on page 114 threw me for a loop. Those kinds of things. My takeaway was, though, that the era of the strong woman who was gonna be able to use her strengths and not amend them for some Karl ass was on the rise. And I was happy about that.
sylvia said...LOL Yes!
Dave F. said...I know women who were raised by their mothers to stay with their mothers. I know real women who could be Agnes and her mother. And one is my age, so they aren't old (or elderly).
BuffySquirrel said...Oh, yeah, the Agnes and her mother situation is totally realistic.
sylvia said...I agree: Agnes and her Mumma had a totally believable relationship - made even better because we are learning it through Agnes as an unreliable narrator (in this particular case)
Robin S. said...I agree, Sylvia. I've read before that any time you see a first person narrator, you are by definition seeing an unreliable narrator. Even when they seem reliable. Because their filter is their filter.
sylvia said...That's a good example actually - do you remember the scene where they have to get off the train and Lawrence basically steps out and they stop shouting "cut their throats" and start shouting Lawrence's name? She prefaces it saying that there was a lot of controversy and she knows she is biased and all she can tell you is what she witnessed that day. That's the kind of scene that broke my suspension of disbelief. Is the author telling me 1) the specific event never happened but it could have 2) the event happened but the source is unreliable 3) the event happened and Agnes is simply being polite in her disclaimer
Evil Editor said...I'm surprised the lawyers didn't shaft Agnes out of her inheritances. It was cool that she didn't mind spending money once she had it. Many would not have been able to get away from their ingrained spendthriftness after living with Mumma.
BuffySquirrel said...Probably the lawyers were too busy shafting richer people....
Robin S. said...I remember women my mother's age who had no real grasp on recent world history, and didn't care that they didn't, absolutely swooning over Peter O'Toole's Lawrence, complete with gorgeous soundtrack. So when Lawrence was in the book, I kept hearing the soundtrack. Rather than being annoying, I found it to be very pleasurable. History on history.
Dave F. said...The Treaty of Versailles did lay the foundation for WW2.
Robin S. said...Of course the Treaty of Versailles helped lay the foundation for WWII. And the Brits doing a divvy job on the Middle East like they were playing a board game didn't help the current situation much, now did it?
BuffySquirrel said...Umm, the overthrow of Iraq's democratic government by the British and the Americans in the 1950s probably had MORE to do with the problems now.
Dave F. said...The British Mandate, Palestine and Transjordan are all real entities. This was the time when Europe created Iraq from Persian, Kurds, and Turks. When the Shia and Sunni got merged together and the places Like Saudi Arabia got set up because Europe thought it looked good.
sylvia said...I think that to an extent they had to do something and there was a limited number of options available. Assigning blame is kind of like trying to pull the snow off a snowball rolling down a mountain - it's layers. That said, I did like the "inner circle" view of the factions and the knowledge (and lack of it!) that went into very serious decision making.
BuffySquirrel said...What was also sad was seeing these desperate attempts to sort out the problems generated by the war, and the utter blindness of it all, and knowing what it would lead to. Very sad.
Robin S. said...P S - every time I mention the Brits screwing up the map, JB gets pissed. And I tell him when he stops making fun of my accent, i'll stop reminding him of the sad morass that is the backslop of his imperialist heritage.
BuffySquirrel said...So, no European in your heritage, Robin? :D I've just been reading about the hash the Dutch made of international relations while building up the spice trade. Yeuch.
Robin S. said...Hey. I love Britain. I'll probably be moving there within a year or two. And become a British citizen. What I said has nothing to do with being a Brit in general. It has to do with the previously accepted notion of imperialism.
BuffySquirrel said...Imperialism is a disease that can affect any society if the conditions are right. America's in its imperialist phase right now. And it's going...badly. You're very welcome to come here, Robin. But the weather really is as bad as we say.
Evil Editor said...Moving to Britain? They're still in the dark ages.
BuffySquirrel said...The dark ages, EE? Nah, we have electric light 'n' even DVD players!
Evil Editor said...I found her history of the influenza pandemic much more riveting than I'd expect to find in a straight history book. More than just stats, it has life.
Dave F. said...I forgot about placing the Influenza epidemic after WW1. EE's right about her relating the events. I hear echoes of it in the news today with the H1N1 flu...
BuffySquirrel said...I was a bit puzzled by the discord by the way the story started--all that about the Influenza and partying like it's 1918...hmm, doesn't scan...yet Agnes seemed to have a very quiet life until she went to Egypt. So I wonder when she was doing all that partying!
Evil Editor said...She wasn't partying, she's narrating from modern times, talking about the twenties in general.
BuffySquirrel said...That would explain it, EE. But it confused me at the time.
sylvia said...I did like the view of the influenza epidemic. In fact, I'm happy with the setting and find the concepts fascinating.
BuffySquirrel said...I really enjoyed the book. I didn't want to put it down. That's great for me, cos I've thrown two books at the wall recently! The book felt true to me. There she is with Winston Churchill, and she didn't even recognise him. That felt real. And the way he kept her standing in the sun while he was painting. SO believable!
Dave F. said...What do we think of the ending? I found it charming and thoughtful.
BuffySquirrel said...I liked the ending; I thought it fitted with the mood of the book. Although I was very sad Agnes lost her chance of a child of her own.
Dave F. said...TE Lawrence was idolized by the Arab populace. He really did accept them as a people capable of ruling themselves while most of Europe wanted financial advantage and political sway.
BuffySquirrel said...Lawrence was a much more complex character than the movie reveals, though. Or than is revealed by this book; but then this book isn't about him. He's just in it :D.
BuffySquirrel said...I loved the nuances in her relationship with Karl; how she knows the bodyguard is right about him, but she goes ahead anyway. She makes a choice to take what she can get.
Dave F. said...I had a bit of a nudge when I was young. My Mother was the only catholic working for United Jewish Appeal while I was growing up and because of that, I knew lots of history going back that far about Palestine. When Lawrence of Arabia came out, they (my Jewish friends) described how it fit into the history after WW1 and the early 20's. It was the Brits who ripped Israel out of their mandate of Palestine and gave refuge to the Jews after WW2. I hear Karl's statement of "you all got a homeland, now leave" (or whatever the exact words were) from the older men.
sylvia said...I've never seen Lawrence of Arabia but this book has made me think I should. :)
BuffySquirrel said...Oh, you should, Syl, it's a great film.
sylvia said...Internet connectivity is still not to be trusted though.
Robin S. said...See the film, Syl, if for no other reason than the combo plan of O'Toole's piercing blue eyes (my favoritest favorite color) and the music are swoon-worthy. And oh yeah, it's a good movie as well. Back to the novel - I think it was interesting that Agnes noticed and talked about Lawrence's withdrawal from the movie star status he'd acquired. When I read that, I thought, you go, honey. There's a man who doesn't have to pretend he has kahunas.
sylvia said...Karl's not even being a jerk yet (although he's clearly going to be) and I'm already going "chase after Lawrence, woman" at her :)
BuffySquirrel said...lol, Syl
Dave F. said...I met some of the HEROES of Israel. Yes, they did start out in rebellion to create Israel. But they were nice guys, too.
sylvia said...Yeah but that can be said of a lot of rebellious types / terrorists / scary single-minded people.
BuffySquirrel said...Anyone can be a nice guy, but that won't necessarily stop them shooting you in their nice cause. I once worked with someone who'd been a terrorist while the British were trying to keep the peace in Cyprus. (Hah!) He was a very nice guy. So what's your point?
Dave F. said...My point was exactly yours, Buffy. Maybe a bit more sarcastic on my side.
I didn't meet Gold Meir and Bibi Netanyahu, but my Mother did. Netanyahu's brother was the only death in the Entebbe raid.
Evil Editor said...I expected someone to complain there was too much travelogue description of Egypt. Agnes does apologize at one point for that.
BuffySquirrel said...I liked the descriptions because they read like Agnes' personal reaction to Egypt, not just rote-stuff lifted from a travel book or the internet. I struggle with that kinda thing so it's great to see it done well. Also, she skipped the mandatory sandstorm scene. Says she, who's been researching, yes, sandstorms....
sylvia said...Very true. I thought the apology was totally in character. And I didn't mind the descriptions and details of her travels at all! We joined her on this trip as a tourist, after all. I could imagine someone starting the book without context (or even reading the back cover) and complaining about all the politics, but not the travelogue.
Dave F. said...The travelogue drags a bit but then, who of us has ridden a camel?
sylvia said...I have! For about 10 minutes and it was every bit as uncomfortable as she described.
BuffySquirrel said...My sister rode a camel! Also got interrogated about the Middle Eastern stamps in her passport when flying to the US. This was the 1980s.
BuffySquirrel said...There were some asides in the narrative that I didn't like, because they reminded me that I was reading something contrived. Spoilt the suspension of disbelief. Fortunately, there weren't many of them. But they did feel out of place at times, as if some (evil) editor had insisted they be put there :D.
Robin S. said...Sorry. I haven't hit refresh for a minute. I was trying to find a passage about being Jewish that struck me. I've always thought religious hatred, anyone on anyone, was so unbelievably stupid and revolting. And I've seen a lot of it. Who cares if someone's Jewish? No need to answer- I get it. But it's such a creepy scapegoat way to live one's life. I'm gonna try to find the page...
BuffySquirrel said...Robin, it's where Agnes finds out Karl's Jewish and he's waiting for her to reject him. Funnily enough, I had a similar experience with an online friend who expected me to have a problem with her being a lesbian.
sylvia said...I remember that bit where she suddenly realised Karl was Jewish. I thought it was totally in keeping with the time and her upbringing. If she had immediately not cared I would have seen that as unrealistic.
Robin S. said...Yeah, Sylvia,I know what you mean about the times and religion. My mother's entire family boycotted her marriage to a Catholic in 1950. No one from her side of the family was allowed to attend 'the abomination'. Weird, huh? But not in Kentucky, in 1950. It was done all the time.
Dave F. said...There was a time when Israel refused admittance if you came to Jerusalem from Cairo or Jordan or Beirut. You had to do the reverse tour, go to Israel first.
Evil Editor said...Interesting that Jerusalem was a tourist trap in the twenties. I wonder if it's still like that. Pieces of the cross for sale. Get 'em here, cheap.
BuffySquirrel said...Jerusalem has its own syndrome. People go there and get All Religious and have to be calmed down.
sylvia said...I'm just reading the reader reviews on amazon - some very nasty comments there.
The book reads like a superficial travelogue and the parts dealing with real historical figures like T.E. Lawrence and Winston Churchill are unbelievably bad: Churchill is a caricature, an objectional imperialist buffoon, while T.E. Lawrence, though treated sympathetically, makes little or no impression on the reader. I feel that the whole point in the book for the author was the "sermon" at the end, where she tells the reader what he/she should think about the Middle East and War in general. Come on Mary Doria Russel! What has happened to you!
BuffySquirrel said...Lol, are they suggesting Churchill WASN'T objectionable?
Dave F. said...Amazon reviews can go completely off the main road and into the oddest corners. I've read some reviews of books and movies that I know very well and the most startling are of music (symphonies) I've heard being recorded. The reviewers get it so wrong.
Evil Editor said...Authors who write in different genres aren't always treated kindly by those who expect them to write the same thing every time. I don't suppose anyone else read The Sparrow?
Robin S. said...I haven't read any other novels by Russell, but I like her already, and will read more. She has my maiden name. (Hey- it may be silly reason, but it's my reason, so there you go.) I looked at her previous novels on Amazon when I ordered this one - and it did look like she was unusual, in that she didn't stay 'in type'.
Evil Editor said...Your Catholic heritage will make The Sparrow a winner, even though you don't normally read science fiction.
BuffySquirrel said...I haven't read The Sparrow, but I will, soon as the Nasty Letters From the Bank stop coming.
sylvia said...I haven't read the Sparrow but unless you say bad things about it, I'm adding it to my wishlist.
Dave F. said...I thought about buying "The Sparrow" but after I read the Author's interview, I decided not to. Part of the charm of this book was it's style and a different genre would ruin that.
Robin S. said...Yeah, Dave, but style or not, she writes well, so that I could see her writing well in another genre.
sylvia said...She is without question a good author - I think I'll like her other books more because I won't have the suspension of disbelief issues. Not that I have time to read them, I need to finish this and get started on the next chat book!
BuffySquirrel said...I just realised my brain conveniently edited out the very end of the book, with the afterlife bit, which I didn't like, and decided to end it earlier while it still liked it. Tricksy brain!
Evil Editor said...Is the book better if Agnes isn't a ghost? Possibly the early parts in Ohio wouldn't have been as interesting due to Agnes's sheltered life, as she could make them looking back.
Dave F. said...I think I would have been disappointed if Agnes hadn't continued the story past her death. It was the recollection of the past that made the book all the more fascinating.
BuffySquirrel said...I don't mind her being a ghost; I just thought the riverbank stuff was, well, a bit daft, and didn't really add anything to the story.
Robin S. said...I liked telling it as an afterlife person. And I have to tell you all, corny or not, I loved the river part in the end. The idea of spiritually inhabiting the river. Oh- and also loved the idea of her as a little old lady in the library - and her words of advice on page- oh crap- can't find it - on how to give children help, how to bring them along within themselves.
Dave F. said...Those were her children. Not of her blood, but of her mind. the little ones who learned better and went on to be better. What more would anyone want?
sylvia said...I've been noticing her talking about being dead, I've been trying to ignore it. (I'm not there yet but) couldn't she tell the story as efficiently from a position of very old age? I'd quite happily accept her living quietly until 105 and then telling her story. Obviously, if her death is critical to the plot, this would not work.
Evil Editor said...Even if she lived to 105, she wouldn't be able to refer to what's going on nowadays in the Middle east. BTW, not to spoil anything Syl, but she doesn't die as part of the plot. You seemed worried.
Blogger sylvia said...I expected spoilers - it's my fault for not getting finished in time. Although I did start to envision Rosie darting into Cairo traffic and Agnes getting hit by a taxi trying to save her.
Evil Editor said...No comments for a while. Time to wind things up. Next month a fairy tale (sort of) from Salman Rushdie, with Robin explaining everything to us.
BuffySquirrel said...Eh, if the chat's over, I'm going to stop fighting with the Internet Connection From Hell, and go to bed. I really liked this book. I even recommended it to my dad, and he can be WITHERING if he doesn't like something.
Dave F. said...I have to do some things before HELLS KITCHEN flames up... Be good ya'll.
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