August, 2009Evil Editor said...Not having read the first Tony book, I have a couple questions. Could he turn into a wolf back when he was a mob hitman? As I understand it, in book one Sue hired Tony to kill her. Why?
fairyhedgehog said...The one thing I found tough about reading this was wishing I'd started on an earlier book. My guess is that he was a hitman long before he was turned into a Sazi.
BuffySquirrel said...I think he was a hitman then he got turned, EE.
CatAdams said...Morning all! Internet's a little flaky this morning, so I may pop in and out. :) In answer to the question, Tony was a wolf in the first book, but was in "denial" about it. He knew nothing about the Sazi reality, and the first book was sort of a coming of age for him in terms of his abilities. Tony was a hitman before the werewolf attack occurred. In fact, it was during a "hit" that he was attacked. He was left for dead, and should have died. As he phrases it, "I guess I was too stubborn to die."
Ruth said...So Tony turns in the first book? That would be a really interesting book to read, methinks! :) Especially if that's the one where he and Sue meet up and get "mated" etc.... And thanks heaps for my copy Cat - I really appreciated it! :)
CatAdams said...Ruth, no--Tony doesn't change for the FIRST time in the book, but it feels like it. In the reality of the world, a "three-day" shifter is one that changes, but doesn't remember the event. They do things that they discover the next morning, and Tony solves it by renting a high-end motel room for a week each month, with strict instructions not to be disturbed--FOR ANYTHING. (Excess amounts of money is nice that way... ;) ) It's only AFTER he meets Sue that he starts to be aware as a wolf. It's a very weird experience for him, and yes--it's very fun to read.
fairyhedgehog said...I think I have to read that first book!
Robin S. said...Hi Cat, Why did Sue hire Tony to kill her? That surprised me when I resd it. They seem so close.
CatAdams said...Because she wanted to commit suicide and kept failing. See, Sue, as a character, is a trainwreck. Readers with strong personalities want to grab her by the throat and shake her in the first book, because she's SUCH a wuss. She's sort of like that woman down the block who keeps returning to the man who beats the crap out of her. You want to scream, "Just LEAVE! Or at least kick his ass!" But they don't, and you shake your head and move on. Yet, a lot of readers who live a life similar to Sue--who are used and abused, have made her a hero. Yes, she was weak, but she winds up getting stronger by the end of the book. And she winds up with the tough guy. Lots of women like the "bad boy" idea. :)
Dave F. said...Sue being the "bad boy magnet" and then really accepting and then suffering doubt... That works.
Robin S. said...Thanks, Cat. That background helped on Sue.
Evil Editor said...I did speak to someone who read Hunter's Moon and said Sue was too meek for her tastes. I'm sure she'd be happy to know about New Sue.
Ruth said...I wondered about some of the history as well. Having said that, while I had some questions about the backstory, I think all the necessary backstory was covered... I guess it's always the case that if you want to find out more about Sue and Tony, etc, you're gonna have to go back and read the earlier ones.... But I found it explained enough backstory to make it work for me.
Dave F. said...I liked Tony at the beginning of the novel but as it progressed, he lost some of his likeableness. Perhaps it's because I'm not as internally focused as he is. This is, after all, first person narrative and constantly being in his mind with all that analysis is nearly anathema to me. I learned long ago that to be the pickiest person, to be the ultimate "Consumer Reports" follower only resulted in people who don't enjoy their choices. And that's a psychologically proven point. The more you research details of a decision, the less you like the decision. Impulse buyers might have "buyers remorse" if they buy junk, but when the purchase works out, impulse buyers are more satisfied than critical buyers who have all the details of why the "best" choice wasn't the "best" choice.
BuffySquirrel said...Sometimes Tony's inner thoughts felt like they slowed the story down, especially when he was explaining why he did or didn't make a particular decision.
CatAdams said...It is actually tricky being an internally focused person, Dave F. Many readers like it because they're right there in the thick of things--making the decisions as they occur, rather than just acknowledging the events after they happen and have been decided. For a writer, it's really a trick to create a reality like that, because it requires a nearly microscopic knowledge of WHY people make decisions.
Dave F. said...Oh Cat, Oh Cat. I'd just about kill if you did that in my presence. Those people are like chalk squeaking to me. It does work in the book and you do it very well.
CatAdams said...If I did WHAT in your presence?? Which people?
Dave F. said...Stood there talking through a decision in detail in my presence. I'm a scientist and planning with all those feelings kinda sets me into a hissy fit. That's why I said that all that internal dialog does naughty things to my mind. I'm way too logical and scientific to feel my way through a decision.
CatAdams said...Ah! Well, fortunately, it happens very quickly in real life, so you wouldn't probably notice. :D But stream of consciousness is even tougher to write. I'm not good at it.
Evil Editor said...My favorite parts were the parts featuring Elizabeth. The ability to see through illusions was cooler than the ability to become a wolf. Maybe she'll star in a YA book.
BuffySquirrel said...Considering how useful Liz was with that ability, I'm surprised they didn't hold onto her for a bit.
Evil Editor said...Yes, Buf, she was there when the guy was using illusion at the airport, but they didn't know there wouldn't be illusionists at the casino.
CatAdams said... True enough. But like a new recruit in the Army, she also couldn't really be trusted without a little experience in the field. Illusion is something they've gotten used to . . . Liz being the only one to be able to see through it, so Sazi tend to take things as they come. The nice thing with illusion magic is it's an expending of energy. That can be "felt" like getting nearer to a forest fire. You might not be able to see the flames, but you know they're out there somewhere.
Dave F. said...Elizabeth quickly accepted her "change" and also seemed to react to it better.
CatAdams said...Not as much as you might think, Dave F. Tony clocked it right--she's a bit in classic shock. People tend to react to the weird in different ways. She'll have a breakdown soon enough and have to come out of it.
Ruth said...Ooh, breakdowns. Fun! (To write/read, that is.) The first time Tony went into Ahmad's mind, I was so confused that after a few pages I had to go back and re-read it all to try and figure out what was actually happening. That could have just been cos I wasn't familiar with the world and its rules, of course. I found the later transitions between Tony/Ahmad a lot smoother.
BuffySquirrel said...I would have liked to meet the grumpy old English badger guy.
fairyhedgehog said...I'd like to see more of the badger guy too. Maybe in later books?
Ruth said...Buffy: Me too! Badger guy sounded really interesting :D
CatAdams said...Actually, BuffySquirrel, readers WILL later meet Liz and Nigel in more depth. She was primarily introduced in this book to launch her own series at a future point. The first book will focus on her introduction into the Sazi at her grandfather's estate. :)
BuffySquirrel said...Oh, that's excellent news! Badger guy and Liz could really knock sparks off each other.
Dave F. said...I figured that. It would seem to me that you keep a central character through a series and move the supporting cast around him or her.
fairyhedgehog said...I liked being inside the narrator's head although I found it confusing at times. I get confused easily.
BuffySquirrel said...Fairy, did you find the shifts between Tony and Ahmad confusing? I did. But I expect Tony found them more so!
fairyhedgehog said...I did find the shifts between Tony and Ahmad confusing but also amusing and I enjoyed them.
Dave F. said...The transitions between Tony and Ahmed are so fast, so slick that I find myself rereading passages to find out what happened. The first time it happened, it took me way out of the book trying to figure out what went on. I'm not sure how you can fix my reading habits. In the cave, I took the "hindsight" as happening because the person touched Tony. Later, specifically when he or Ahmed is making love, it's disorienting if you are a sloppy reader (like me). And you do come back to link to the cave and not leave dangling threads. I appreciate that.
Evil Editor said...I found it took a few sentences to realize they had happened. I think I expected to be in Tony's POV in Ahmad's head, but was instead in Ahmad's POV.
Ruth said...Really? I thought - for the first time at least - it was more Tony's take on Ahmad's thoughts. Like, he could read/hear Ahmad's thoughts, but was still looking at it from his perspective. I noticed the language changed when he was in Ahmad's mind, though, so that made me a bit unsure - I couldn't quite figure whether Tony was passively in Ahmad's mind or was an observer making notes on the happenings in Ahmad's mind.
Robin S. said...The first shift between Tony and Ahmad's thoughts took me by surprise - I went back to check to see what I'd missed. After that, I got it.
Dave F. said...Chapter 14 has that transition when we enter Ahmad's head. I got confused but you made up for it with the knife. A black knife with still nasty powers and Marduc the winged dragon, Ooh-lala, as ze French zay, Not just another Le' French Fry... A Mayan Temple in New Jersey where they really do rip your heart out while it is still beating. Or should I say rip your wallet out while it still jingles. For some people hearts and wallets are the same thing. My fatal flaw is the dice table. Love those dice. Roll dem little red cuboids and make me a winner.
BuffySquirrel said...The Tony/Ahmad scene is a tricky one to pull off, for sure. I had to read back.
Dave F. said...Once I figured out what was going on, when it happened my reader's mind knew what to do. The first time was just a scream of WHAT!!!! and a whimpered help me, help me...
CatAdams said...BTW--the connection between Tony and Ahmad was something I'd been wanting to try for a long time. I tried it briefly in a couple of books, through Tony's hindsight ability. But the near-first of the POV sort of requires no prior warning--and I knew it was going to confuse readers in that first scene. But to HAVE warning would have take away some of the fun of the scene, I think. I did try it a couple of different ways before I settled on this.
Ruth said...So Cat, this whole series is just based in this world but about a whole lot of different characters, right? I noticed in the intro you mentioned characters like Bobby and Asri, etc... do most of the characters meet and interact in a lot of the books? But it's just told from different character's points of view?
CatAdams said... Correct. The trick with the Sazi world is that it really should have been shelved as Urban Fantasy--except that the first book was purchased for the romance line at Tor. The world was originally envisioned as Tony having one series . . . in first person, that was to be called "The Wolven Chronicles" with other characters having a second series that was more political and emotionally driven. Of course, it's very difficult to have two consecutive series in the same world, but on different shelves--as I'm sure EvilEditor will testify. So, we settled for the romances and told the politics by revolving all the people within the political scheme. It's sort of like having a series set in the legislature, and each senator having their own book. For a romance, it's VERY unusual to have a character have multiple books. Once the romance is told, it's TOLD. It's one of the requirements of the genre. But Tony has now had three books, setting it even deeper into the urban fantasy concept.
BuffySquirrel said...Ah! I wondered why it was Romance :).
Ruth said...Wow, it surprised me to hear this was classed as romance! That's not the genre I'd have picked for this book.... :) (I don't like straight romance either, although romance within a SF/F book works pretty well for me.) I do like Sue. She just seems... nice. Not too meek to me (and I'm definitely not the kind who'd go back to a guy who beat me, etc). But I guess that's all in the previous books. I like the Sue in this book. :)
fairyhedgehog said...That's fascinating about the romance etc. I'd have classed it as Urban Fantasy but with an enjoyable romantic element. I don't enjoy straight romance much but I do like sci fi or fantasy with romantic elements, although I usually prefer unresolved tension. I thought the romance part was unusually well done.
Evil Editor said...These days urban fantasies almost always have female main characters. Kick-ass babes with attitude. Future Liz?
Dave F. said...From my perspective (male) this is more sci fi or urban than romance. If Marduc had not raised his ugly head in Chapter 14 and provided action, I would have felt cheated.
BuffySquirrel said...HIS ugly head?
CatAdams said... Good point... Read the book in the spring and find out. LOL!
BuffySquirrel said...Wolf and snake seemed to think more similarly than I'd expect, which helped confuse the sqrl brain.
CatAdams said...It's not wolf and snake specifically, but Tony and Ahmad. It surprised them, too. It's unnerving to find out that a guy you LOATHE (which they do in Book 2, Moon's Web) thinks so similarly to you.
BuffySquirrel said...I can see how that would be unnerving, Cat.
Evil Editor said...My favorite parts were in Kansas and at the airport. Who wrote those? How does the collaboration work? Does each person write some or does one do the rough draft and the other the polishing?
BuffySquirrel said...i wanted to ask that too, EE. How does the collaboration work?
Robin S. said...I'm very interested in how you approach the novels as co-authors.
CatAdams said... Cie and I co-author similarly to how Douglas Preston and Lincoln Child do. We talk out the plot of the book before anything goes on paper, flip a coin about who writes the book (except that in the case of the Tony books, I'm the lead author on them all) and one person writes the entire book. The other author then comes in and RE-WRITES it. No track changes or notes. Just dive in and change what you like--from plot, to characters or narrative and dialogue. The first author gets it back, reads the changes, accepts some, rejects some, and off it goes to the editor.
Fortunately, we've worked together long enough now (about 15 years) that we pretty much accept anything the other person does, because we have different strengths as writers. :)
Evil Editor said...Do you co-authors argue over stuff, like whether Charles should be a gorilla or a gigantic polar bear?
CatAdams said... LOL! Every single day. :D Sometimes, we have to resort to flipping a coin. Thankfully, that's an actual accepted method of deciding in our Partnership Agreement. Sort of "binding arbitration by deity or fate." Heh..
Dave F. said...Flipping a casino chip, in this case.
BuffySquirrel said...Very cool. You make collaboration sound so easy! :)
David H. Burton said...I've always wondered how this kind of collaboration works. You're a great pair. Keep doing what you're doing because it works!
Ruth said...Oh, wow. I don't know if I'd have the courage to take that approach to co-authoring a book! No track changes or anything... you'd have to have so much faith in your co-author.
Evil Editor said...My problem would be when the royalties start coming in and my co-author expects half of them.
BuffySquirrel said...Lol, EE. As if we would.
Ruth said...(Typical man - it's always about the money :P )
CatAdams said... Yes...but. You're also writing twice as many books, so it evens out. Twice the money for half the work. :)
Evil Editor said...If writer A sends the manuscript to writer B and writer B says it's perfect, I wouldn't change a word, does writer B still get half the glory? Just asking.
Ruth said...Heh - I don't know any writer, ever, who would say that. Even my favourite books, there are some bits I would always change. Not necessarily big bits. But there's always something. You sound almost cynical, EE. No, that can't be right....
BuffySquirrel said...Even if the book were perfect, Writer B would still feel the need to change something.
CatAdams said...Yep. But the reverse is true, too. ;) However, we're both Type-A personalities. We simply CAN'T say "it's perfect." LOL!
Evil Editor said...Is this the 2nd Sue/Tony book? Who were the main characters of the other Sazi books? Were they all mentioned in this book?
CatAdams said... This is the THIRD Sue/Tony book. They started in Hunter's Moon--the first of the world, and have a true sequel that ends just a month after the first book in Moon's Web. Many of the major characters are introduced in Moon's Web. Only Bobby and Lucas are actually introduced in the first book (along with some bad guys that die. Of course.) There simply wasn't room to put all the characters in this book. I did try and got slapped by my editor for "name dropping." LOL! But this is the seventh book and with a broad world arc, there are subplots in each book that don't necessarily get answered due to size constraints. The books started out about 100K words and have slowly crept upward, to the point we had to step outside the cover stock size limitations for the imprint. But there's just too much. We're hoping (if the series continues) to be able to address more of the events happening with other characters.
Robin S. said...I enjoyed the scent ideas. The smells of emotion.
BuffySquirrel said...Yes, I thought representing emotions as different smells worked well.
Robin S. said...And the snake sex. That was VERY well done.
Dave F. said...Some things don't make any sense to me. Like for example, when Tony leaves the meeting with Lucas and Charles and the hospital is dark and empty. The other HUH? was in the small midwest town suddenly goombas and women appear. I was , like sumthin' else is going on here and it ain't obvious just yet.
CatAdams said... But, you'll notice that they ALSO don't make sense to Tony. That's part of the fun of writing near-first person. The character is just as clueless as the reader, and sometimes (like the reader) just has to accept it and move on.
Evil Editor said...Do all Sazi have great sense of smell, or just the ones who can change into animals with great sense of smell? For instance, I assume wolves have better sense of smell than birds.
CatAdams said...Pretty much, this. Yes. You'll notice that Will has exceptional eyesight, instead of scent. The cats impart some interesting takes on their human sides. They have better night vision, for example, are very quick, and jump more often as a tool of protection and attack. The heroine of Captive Moon, for example is a tiger. But she has a secret fondness for sparrows and often stalks the bird feeder at her parent's home. It annoys her mom. ;)
Ruth said...Ooh, I would love to read one about a tiger. :)
BuffySquirrel said...Once, an unlucky sparrow got in through the half-open window to our bathroom. The cat still sits up there, hopeful that another will appear. Even when the window's closed.
Ruth said...Is this going to be a series that never ends? :)
CatAdams said... Well, it would at least be nice to wrap up the current subplots. We DO wrap up the Marduc world arc in the next book, FWIW.
Dave F. said...Do you mind if I trash one of your characters. Good, you don't mind.
And that brings me to Lucas. I'm trying to be nice here. I'm trying to be polite but I need at least one naughty word... Lucas is a prick. Sorry about being that blunt. I've had tough and strict bosses but Lucas treats Tony like poo-poo and never, ever stops
Perhaps it is me (the resident rock-throwing anarchist who gives bosses heartburn) but they all seem to hate Tony or at least consider him a second-class boob but they all know that he's going to save their lives.
Ruth said...I kind of liked Lucas. :) I guess I just figured it was sort of unconscious racism because they're not human and consider themselves "above" humans, let alone three-day wolves, which seem to be a step below humans on the respect chain.... Maybe like we'd think of an intelligent but occasionally rabid dog. We might be able to work with it some of the time, but if it was our choice we'd definitely have it put down.
(Do you get occasionally rabid animals? No? Oh well, you get my point.)
CatAdams said...This is pretty much the reason, and it gets addressed in the next book by a complete dressing down of Lucas, through events beyond his ability to fix. If you think about the concept of being damn close to immortal ("Sazi" coming from "Anasazi" the tribe of people who predate the Mayan empire) you start to think of yourself as "above" things.
Lucas is beyond frustrated with Tony, because he truly believes Tony should be been put down as a danger to their secret. Let's face it, he's a wanted felon! But he's important in the scheme of things, so the Sazi seers have instructed Lucas to keep him alive--at whatever cost, and insist that Tony be constantly be thrown into danger that REQUIRES saving him because one of the events is going to trigger the reason he's being kept alive.
Imagine having an employee who you know screws up, and you have to keep saving their butt, but you're not allowed to fire them. You can't really even discipline them. It makes for a very uneasy existence--even if some days you actually like them (and then wonder if, BY liking them, you're falling down a dark hole.)
BuffySquirrel said...I did think Lucas's threats got a little tiring, maybe because it was obvious he wasn't going to kill Tony after a while.
Robin S. said...Yeah, Ruth. I see what you mean. Some bosses are crap as people, and they scare the hell outta others, but they get the job done. Unfortunately, that's often the reality of life.
BuffySquirrel said...Allegedly, sociopaths make great corporate execs.
Evil Editor said...Isn't it about time there was a Sazi weredingo?
CatAdams said... Actually, the villain in the first book was a werehyena, so close. We actually did plan a book to be set in Australia, with an off-shoot of the wolves. Of course, dingos have now actually be officially re-classified from canis to canis lupus, so it's completely plausible. :)
Robin S. said...Yeah! A weredingo! I'm all for that.
BuffySquirrel said...What skills would a weredingo have? Hunting rabbits? Locating rock paintings?
Dave F. said...Any problems I had with the book disappeared with the ending. Very satisfying. Nicely done. I enjoyed the story. I'll be reading the thread for about 20 minutes more. Other obligations demand my presence. Nice chat. Thanks for coming.
Stephanie said...I have to admit Tony is my favorite person in the Sazi series. Will there be more books staring him in the future? And any hints on what the next book in the series is about?
CatAdams said...At the moment, Stephanie, there aren't. We're hopeful, of course, but it all depends on the realities of publishing. The next book will feature (for those who follow the series) the secondary character, Holly Sanchez (from Howling Moon) and a new character named Eric Thompson, from the Candadian wolf pack. The main focus will be on the snake plot and conclusion of the Marduc threat. :) Actually, we have either three or FOUR book contracts each year. We've published fourteen books in five years. :)
David H. Burton said...Wow! That's amazing. I need to get better organized! :)
Ruth said...Whoa. That's - a lot of pressure! Well done for keeping that pace up!
And I'm very sorry, but my eyes aren't focusing properly any more, so I'm going to go get some shuteye now. Will read the rest of the book chat in the (later) morning. :)
CatAdams said... Thanks for staying, Ruth! Especially considering the time there. Also thanks to those who have come and gone. I don't mind staying if there are more questions. Unless, of course, you'd rather discuss the book without me here... ;)
Evil Editor said... Cat shouldn't feel obligated to stay any longer than she cares to, as the chats usually run from 1 to 1.5 hours.
Robin S. said...How did you and your friend start writing your books together? Was it initially a lark, just totally for fun, or did you set out with a plan?
CatAdams said... Heh. We had no plan at ALL at first. We were just each other's beta readers. Then we started plotting together when we'd get stuck, so became critique partners. But then a strange thing happened. My first book got accepted for publication through a small press (historical fiction--about Colorado's railroad days) But one of the things the editor said he LOVED about the book was a particular subplot about an Irish "rusteater" who was working on the railroad to bring his bride to America. That was Cie's idea. Completely and totally.
But how do you reward the idea that probably got the book published? "Hey, thanks!" "Here, let me buy you lunch!" A cut of the royalties? You see the problem for a fair-minded person? (which I am)
And then, it occurred to me that if I was indeed going to be honest, what about the subplot I added to HER book? What if IT got published? Would I be satisfied with a thanks, or a lunch?
You see the problem with being a greedy egotist? (which I ALSO am. LOL!)
So, co-authoring was born. Equal credit on the cover, equal checks from the publisher, and a partnership was born. :D
Robin S. said... Cat, that's really interesting - about the beginnings being beta readers for each other.
CatAdams said... Thanks for coming, everyone! It was a fun time. I'll be on-line for a few more minutes, so feel free to ask more questions. I'll be happy to answer. I'd planned to stay for the full hour. :)
Evil Editor said... Yes, but you stayed almost two hours--above and beyond.
CatAdams said... Bye, all! Thanks again for reading the book, and glad you mostly enjoyed it. :)
