December, 2009Evil Editor said...A few thoughts while I wait for those who showed up and left because I was late arriving: Those who don't respect graphic novels might feel that way because they often have superheroes, and thus remind them of comic books, which they also don't respect. For you I would recommend checking out Persepolis, a graphic novel by an Iranian woman which was also made into a film not too long ago. Also, City of Glass, a graphic novel adaptation of a novel by Paul Auster, who wrote our chat book from last summer, Man in the Dark. And Epileptic, about a kid growing up with an epileptic sibling. Beyond that, it could be argued that what graphic novels lack from a literary standpoint they make up for with art. You know what they say about a picture.
Dave F. said...I read PERSEPOLIS, it is a brilliant statement on life in Iran. I haven't read CITY OF GLASS.
sylvia said...I loved Persepolis, it totally changed my view of graphic novels. Which means I probably need to get City of Glass.
Evil Editor said...Descriptions of characters are often lame. She had brown hair and blue eyes and her mouth was as pouty as a crab on downers. Wouldn't you rather see the character sometimes? Not necessarily if it's an artist's rendering of the author's story, but if the artist IS the author, why not get the author's take?
Robin S. said...Without wanting to be contrary, I'd rather draw my own pictures and my own conclusions on what things look like. Very few movies make me happy once I've read the novel it was made from. If I see the movie first, fine. If not...
Evil Editor said... So, a graphic novel made from a novel you've read wouldn't please you, but a graphic novel made from scratch shouldn't displease you any more than a movie whose screenplay you hadn't read.
Robin S. said...You've got a point, EE. OK. I'm simply prejudiced.
stacy said...So maybe your imagination is too strong for graphic novels, Robin. I'm kind of a recent convert to graphic novels and comic books myself. My former roommate, D, is a HUGE collector, and I'll never forget the morning he spent trying to convince me that graphic novels and comic books are every bit as literary and global-reaching as novels. I rolled my eyes. But once I realized he was right, I said so.
Robin S. said...Stacy, Which novel did you read that turned you from the dark side to liking graphic novels?
stacy said...I think it might have been Fun Home by Allison something-or-other. It was a memoir told in graphic novel form, and it was much more meaty than I anticipated. I guess I expected some sappy memoir about growing up as an undertaker's daughter, and instead she told this godawful and great story about her father and how his being a closeted gay man affected her as a lesbian. I think the graphic novel form was a great way for her to express what she meant without having to get too wordy.
Robin S. said...Stacy, See - that's the thing. I expect a graphic novel NOT to deal with issues like the one you described. Also, I think I worry that attention spans in general have suck-dropped off, and fewer people want to spend the intellectual capital necessary for immersion in a traditionally written novel.
stacy said...I get what you're saying, Robin, but I think what's happening is that people are discovering that graphic novels are as good as "real" novels - it's just that the story's told in a different way. Yes, they're "easier" in terms of reading, but the thematic stuff is pretty much the same. Watchmen gives PLENTY of food for thought.
Evil Editor said... I got turned on to them when Evil Jr. asked for a couple for Christmas a year or two ago. I read them and liked them. Those were called Y: the Last Man and David Boring.
Dave F. said... Amazon keeps shoving "Y" at me and I am not sure I want to read it. Of course I like "Johnny the Homicidal Maniac".
Evil Editor said...Y is well worth it. There are now numerous sequels. (which I can't vouch for)
Robin S. said... I think EE Jr is about Robin Jr's age, right? Early 20s? Robin Jr likes them as well. And she reads other novels voraciously - right now she's rereading Slaughterhouse Five, so I guess my takeaway - with you and Stacy liking them as well, is that maybe I need to thaw out a bit, and read with a more open mind.
stacy said...I've also read most of the Absolute Watchman (I moved before I could finish it) and some of Sandman - something I plan to collect. So what did you all think of Black Hole?
Dave F. said...This book was a surprise for me in that I thought I was going to hate it even while part way through. Then I began to see the story and understand what Burns was driving at. I wasn't fond of the artistic style here. He's a brilliant artist and the detail is great, but all the characters were so similar. Of course, that might have been deliberate. Many times the style of drawing in a graphic novel will put off part of the audience.
Evil Editor said...I admit I had some trouble telling a couple characters apart, as they were drawn somewhat similarly.
Dave F. said... I think Burns created his teens to look similar. It's part of the angst thing. All teens think they are unique and isolated and yet none of them are.
sylvia said...I think Dave is right in that the characters were drawn to be very similar - when he wanted to set someone apart, it worked. And yet, a few times, I paged back to work out who was who and I think it was intentional. It's a "random teen."
Robin S. said...I read the comments on the novel on the back - Time, etc., and thought...hmmmm...maybe I'm missing out on something. I'm guessing this is well done, but I keep seeing Mary Worth and Batman, mixed.
stacy said...I had to be converted, too, Robin. I thought GNs and comic books were for geeky guys who dreamt of being superheroes (and many are), but in learning more about the Batman canon and the Spiderman canon, I'm finding writers like Stan Lee and . . . Frank Miller . . . to be every bit as good as Dickens. Just goes to show, I guess.
Dave F. said...It took me over half the story to figure out what was going on. The story is evocative of teen angst and isolation. They flee their homes and parents to live in the woods while they figure out what is "wrong"...And nothing is "wrong" that they can't grow out of. Unfortunately, I'm not a fan of teen angst presented this way.
Sylvia said...I disagree with Dave in that I saw it a lot more wrong than what they could grow out of. Tails and fur and mouths....
Dave F. said...This is an excellent portrayal of the isolation and doubts that all teens have. Think about Keith's speech across a few of the first pages: I was looking at a hole… a black hole and as I looked, the hole opened up… and I could feel myself falling forward, tumbling down into nothingness. For a while I was just floating… I was in this totally black place. It was kind of spacey but it felt nice… nice and safe. Each character reverberates that sentiment. And I see parallels to the AIDS epidemic as both the deformities in BLACK HOLE and AIDS are sexually transmitted.
Evil Editor said...What was interesting about Black Hole was that it's set up like a novel. Moving from chapter to chapter you also move to a different character's POV. Others I've read were either omniscient or stuck with one character.
stacy said...Did you like that aspect of it, EE? Or did it make it confusing since some of the characters were drawn similarly?
Evil Editor said...It made it a bit confusing, but I liked it nonetheless. Another thing that led to confusion was the large number of flashbacks and dreams, which were shown by using squiggly lines around the panel instead of straight ones. You had to be alert or you might miss it.
stacy said...That is one problem I have with graphic novels. Sometimes it's hard to keep track of the plot. I mean, obviously that problem can exist with novels, but in graphic novels I almost expect things to be more clear since it's drawn.
Dave F. said...I've seen dream sequences in graphic novels before and the "squiggly" lines were jarring. They maintained each panel's separation from the next panel. They isolated it. Instead of being a foggy blur, these flashbacks and dreams were isolating and lonely experiences.
Evil Editor said...In this novel, Stacy, there's a sexually transmitted disease that affects everyone differently. Those who have "the bug" become outcasts.
stacy said...Ew. I can see how Dave saw parallels with the AIDS epidemic.
Dave F. said...I couldn't help but think of AIDS with part of the story like this:
It was like a horrible game of tag...It took a while, but they finally figured out it was some kind of new disease that only affected teenagers. They called it the "teen plague" or "the bug" and there were all kinds of unpredictable symptoms...For some it wasn't too bad - a few bumps, maybe an ugly rash...Others turned into monsters or grew new body parts...But the symptoms didn't matter...Once you were tagged, you were "it" forever.
This is about sexually coming of age. In the end, once you get the "bug" you are tagged forever. You are "it" forever. Sex changes everything.
stacy said...Sex DOES change everything, doesn't it?
Robin S. said...I have to say that a lot of what was written, I enjoyed. The tail between the legs part at the end...etc.
Dave F. said...By the way, many people think of high school as either ALL good or ALL bad with no ground in between. Those kids couldn't live with their parents after getting the "bug" but they could stay alone and isolated in the woods -- no emotional contact except with a few peers. Gee whiz if that isn't the story we hear about from kids in HS...
You don't understand.
You'll never understand.
I can't talk to my parents.
I can only talk to my girl/boy friend, my steady who knows me...
teen angst.
stacy said...That's true, Dave. But I do think high school tends to be a time of heightened emotions. That could account for it. The part with the woman with the tail doesn't sound very sexy, though.
Dave F. said...Trust me Stacy, a woman with a tail is sexy. (blush)
Evil Editor said...Surprisingly, the tail was very attractive. More so than most of the other Bug effects.
Sarah Laurenson said...But aren't tails supposed to be sexy? Demons got 'em. Vixens flirt with 'em.
stacy said...hah - Dave! I was thinking alligator tail or something, but I'm guessing you're thinking of a different kind. : )
Dave F. said...I would like to ask Burns if the manifestations of the disease (like the tail and the shedding skin) was deliberately metaphorical. If that's was so, it's a subtle point.
sylvia said...Stacy: The tail was complicated. Various effects of the illness were given as potentially sexy but only the tail was drawn to be sexy. Is that true for you all?
Robin S. said...Yep, Sylvia - the tail was the only one that seemed sexy to me at all. It was even drawn beautifully, not ugly like the others.
stacy said...I guess I'll have to eat my words about this tail thing.
sylvia said...I expected to like the book and flicked through it and then gave it to my (15-year-old) son. So when I started reading it, my main reaction was ohshitmaybenot - I don't think he minded but I'm not sure it was a good book to receive from your mom. So, I started off with a bias of "please be less adult"
stacy said...Okay, I'll refrain from lending my future copy to either of my nieces.
Evil Editor said...Interesting that the bug caused horrible deformities and some fairly unnoticeable changes, and even that sexy tail. The extra mouth on the neck. It looked like a female sex organ. So did the drawings at the beginning of the chapters. Or was that just MY imagination?
sylvia said...There were lots of naked bits in general. I didn't take the book out of the house because I wouldn't have liked someone looking over my shoulder ;) But yes - the mouth (and the opening pages) were all clearly vulvas to me - I thought it was probably just me being warped though
Dave F. said...But all life enters the world through a vagina, through that opening. And guess what, for at least half the world (the men, mostly) it remains a black hole of ignorance all their lives.
Evil Editor said...Also, the cut on the girl's foot near the beginning. Is that where the title comes from?
sylvia said...Yeah, the mouth on the foot was the same shape. I found it disconcerting but I can see that as a black hole of ignorance, it would be compelling. It didn't put me off as a reader (only as a mother, etc)
Dave F. said...Floating in the water staring up at the black, night sky is a metaphorical black hole.
Robin S. said...Yeah, EE, I agree. The creature's slit open place, and other things, were very vaginal. I'll check Persepolis, but I think I might be better off starting out with Neil Gaiman. The reason is that I LOVED The Graveyard book, and so, I'll be more open to giving his graphic novels a thoughtful read.
Dave F. said...This could be a good book for teenagers if they weren't such inarticulate lumps around their parents and other adults.
stacy said...It's the hormones, Dave. They outnumber the brain cells at that age.
Dave F. said...And whatever changes are going on in their bodies will pass. They aren't the first or the last.
Evil Editor said...It could send teens the message not to make those who are different outcasts.
sylvia said...I found the detail of the book to be ... detailed but not pretty. I presume that's intentional. The acne, the teeth. They hurt. Uh oh, is the author here? They were all well drawn just not pleasantly so.
stacy said...No, the author isn't here, thank God, because EE was LATE.
Robin S. said...I thought the tail idea was cool. I remember reading and feeling bad for the ones who had ugly manifestations of this.
sylvia said...Robin: Persepolis. Honestly. I've read a few before, Neil Gaiman, and stuff that Connor got as presents and it was all OK and then I read that and thought - yeah, I get it. I really would like to read the Sandman series but I can never find the starting books when I'm at the bookstore.
stacy said...I want to read Persepolis. And the City of Glass. BTW, I've ordered the book for the next book chat. So at least when I'm running my mouth there will be a better chance I'll know what the hell I'm talking about.
Robin S. said...I do think the teen angst with physicality attached in the form of disfigurement, was a good take on what teens experience. Funny, though, I remember reading that there were no 'teenagers' - ie - young-old kids, until after the turn of the 20th century. Before that they were young adults with big responsibilities and no pity if they angsted around.
sylvia said...I suspect that I didn't actually get the point of the story.
Dave F. said...When I was deep in the "what the hell is this book" funk, I called up a friend who reads all of these and has the walls of his house like with graphic novels. He said that issue 12 of the serialized version has a quote that didn't make it into the book version, partly because it contradicts, partly because it was merely cover art. Take it with a grain of salt:
It's like tryin' to explain sex to a nun - there's no way you'd ever understand it unless you lived it. I was there, okay? Half my fuckin' friends died out there, man. I never dreamed I'd get out of that shit-hole...but one day I notice the stuff on my face is starting to heal and a couple of months later, I'm totally fuckin' clean...out walking around with all the normal assholes.
Evil Editor said...The way the faces are obscured on the front and back cover may fit in with the same topic.
stacy said...So maybe the deformities were physical manifestations of what teens feel?
Dave F. said...Bingo! Stacy got it.
stacy said...Hah! I feel like I just won a round of Jeopardy.
Evil Editor said...Did anyone remark on the fact that twelve people are shown on the inside front cover flap, and they all look kind of similar, and the same twelve are shown on the inside back cover after the bug has made each of them look unique?
Robin S. said...Oh hell. I didn't look at the inside of the back cover before you mentioned that. To be honest, I'd prefer looking the same to some of the individuality hanging out there. If I wanted to look different, I'd dye my hair or get colored contacts and be JUST fine, thanks. That said, I get the point. Also, Dave, does the quote you posted mean that everyone heals eventually? Hope so!
Evil Editor said...Only the ones who survived.
Dave F. said...Not everyone survives or heals from growing up.
sylvia said...It was like a horrible game of tag It was the moralism that got to me in the end - bear in mind I was swayed throughout by the fact that I'd given it to my son to read (I've given him so much to read, I don't think any one book is going to be a big issue, but it annoyed me) so I was reading it with a much more judgmental tone of view.
Evil Editor said...I read every book judgmentally because I gave them all to you guys to read.
sylvia said...Clearly it's aimed at teenagers and I don't think it's a bad book for teenagers. It's just not one I wanted to be associated with giving to my teenager. Does that make sense?
Sarah Laurenson said...Perfect sense, Sylvia, but raises an interesting point about where you draw a line for the masses and for yourself personally.
Evil Editor said...Your teenager is probably thinking, My mom read this? Ew.
Sarah Laurenson said...Yeah. What EE said. ;-)
sylvia said...LOL, yes, I'm sure that's exactly what he thought. He usually rushes to discuss books with me but this one, not so much ;)
stacy said...I can see why you would find some of it objectionable, Sylvia, based on what's been described here. But just think: In ten years he's going to remember you as the coolest mother on Earth for trusting him enough to "get" this book.
Dave F. said...I had to help a niece through 2 years of home-schooled HS and after assembling a whole pile of poetry and two Shakespeare plays, she informed me that my world outlook was too dark and I should lighten up...
Evil Editor said...I've been meaning to tell you that too, Dave.
stacy said...Did she even read the material? Everyone knows what a hoot Shakespeare was.
Dave F. said...She read all of it because I wrote up essay questions and graded the answers. All that stuff has to be written down for Home Schoolers. I don't know how those women do it for 12 years. But I digress.
sylvia said...Sarah: thinking about this a bit more...I feel that I have undo influence so any morality plays I hand over have implicit approval. I'm not sure he even sees this anymore but I still react to it. So yeah, you could do a good split of books that are "good reads" and books I'd hand to my son to read.
stacy said...I think we all draw that line a bit. I know I do when it comes to my nieces.
Ahhh, I see what you mean, Sylvia. Maybe the author was commenting on how unhealthily we tend to view sex in relation to teens.
Robin S. said...Yeah. Me, too on the line drawing, One of the stories I had in the mag - my younger daughter asked for the link so she could read it and I said, ummmm... and she said, THERE's NOT SEX IN IT??? And I said no but the word 'masturbation' is. Not that anyone does in the story, but it's mentioned. And she laughed and asked for the link.
sylvia said...So - and I'm sorry if I'm being thick - but was the point that discovering sex is horrid? Or did I miss something deeper?
Sarah Laurenson said...Now isn't that a great lesson for a YA book. Mirrors a lot of real life messages from parents at least.
Evil Editor said...I don't think that's the message at all.
sylvia said...Discovering sex *was* horrid for me - no foul, no fault, just ineptness on all parts. So I could see myself as a teen finding sympathy with the book. But on the other hand, as an adult, I don't like the implication that having sex (just the once, sir) means that I might grow a mouth on my foot.
Dave F. said...I might get stoned (rocks and spoiled veggies) for saying this but sometime in a kids life, you have to say. IT'S SEX! GET OVER IT! and be perfectly, brutally honest with them.
Sarah Laurenson said...Honesty is a good way to go, I think. Better than letting them fumble around and get all kinds of diseases and weird hang ups in their ignorance.
Dave F. said...Diseases like the "Bug" or AIDS or HPV or the Clap?
Sarah Laurenson said...Lots of great diseases to be had out there.
stacy said...So maybe the deformities were physical manifestations of what teens feel?
According to Dave, this was one of the themes. I'm probably not helping. i didn't even read the damn book.
Evil Editor said...Burns has said that the mutations can be read as a metaphor for adolescence, sexual awakening and the transition into adulthood.--Wikipedia
Dave F. said...I think every teen thinks something is wrong with them at one point or another in growing up.
Robin S. said...Hell - sex is one of the truly amazingly good things about being human. You know what you're doing, and unless you're a nun married to Jesus or you're frigid or your partner sucks not in a good way, you like it. Ok. That was a long list of reasons NOT to like it. But you know what I mean. I think it was the physical manifestation of angst at a certain age, along with life lessons about differences, with some nakeds picture and a lot of vaginal imagery tossed in for the guys.
stacy said...I was fine during my teen years. My twenties, however, were my "teen years" in terms of angst. Pure hell.
sylvia said...I started to write "in this world, you can have sex once and you are fucked" and then I thought "don't swear" and then I thought "what a ludicrous statement that is! Of course you are, by definition."
Sarah Laurenson said...It's that invincibility factor that leads them to think they won't get anything. But if they had to think about getting something obvious and hard to hide? Not sure the message would get across, but I guess it's worth a shot.
Sarah Laurenson said...So do you think the author/illustrator compromised the integrity of the book in order to broaden the appeal to more readers?
Robin S. said...Hey Sarah, All kidding aside, I don't see the author as having compromised to draw in more readers. I was just disappointed because there were more good female pics than male.
Sarah Laurenson said...Of course you were, Robin. :)
Evil Editor said...Unprotected sex can make you an outcast if you get the Bug. Getting the bug can lead to being treated unfairly, can't even buy a bucket of chicken. There are subtle lessons that aren't bad (like sex sucks).
stacy said...Huh? You think sex sucks??
Sarah Laurenson said...Some sex sucks.
Dave F. said...I am more attuned to AIDS in anything because years ago (in 79 and 82) I had major surgery and blood transfusions. Those were the years of the unknown disease called that was eventually called AIDS being in the blood supply. I worried for at least a decade as the health crisis unfolded. I saw the metaphor at the first mention.
sylvia said...So am I right in that the overall message is that if you have sex, you can catch a horrible disease? I don't mind the general concept of showing Aids or HIV or the clap as a physical issue that would draw attention (a mouth in your throat, fur in your face, horrific acne) But it feels to me like it's bordering on abstinence training with a fantasy touch. AND ... in that case, what's with the tail?
Robin S. said...I'm grinning now - when minions read these comments later, they'll have a big time.
Sarah Laurenson said...The fastest growing risk group for AIDS was young kids. Not sure if it still is.
Robin S. said...I abhor the thought of abstinence training.What the hell's that about, right? I taught my girls a little thing called 'reality training'. Sex is good stuff, but only with a person you actually like. As a person.
Sarah Laurenson said...Is it about abstinence in the book? Is that the only way to not get the bug?
Dave F. said...I don't see abstinence training in this at all. I do see teen isolation and teen angst and teens struggling to discover who they are. In the book, one of the guys does it cavalierly and without concern for getting the "Bug." He acts like it's a badge of honor, a rite of passage. That's not arguing abstinence, that's a teen rebelling against the world. They all do.
Robin S. said...Agreed. It's not actually about abstinence, as far as I can tell. Although in all fairness, that would be the 100% way not to become diseased/changed.
sylvia said...Well, the author seemed pretty teen friendly so that's why I wondered if I'd missed something big. Because it seemed like there was no happy sex ever which I guess can be true but hell, does it show up in any other type of fiction?
Evil Editor said...I didn't find all the sex to be unhappy sex.
Sylvia said...OK, so what was the point? Just simply being a teenager is hell? (totally agree, btw) No one had happy sex. Having sex caused the disease. I don't think Burns ever in any way implied they shouldn't have sex in the story ... but as a reader, what's the message that you take?
Evil Editor said...Here's a review of the book with some interesting points:
http://www.english.ufl.edu/imagetext/archives/v2_1/reviews/raney.shtml
sylvia said...(reading the review still) The sex itself isn't bad, only the result? I guess the knee-jerk response I have had is exactly based on the underlying theme (I felt) that not having sex was how to win. Not that anyone ever considered it.
Sarah Laurenson said...That's a long detailed review.
stacy said...So does anyone here think Burns could have gotten his points across better in novel form rather than GN form?
Evil Editor said...If he wanted to get them across to teen boys, he reached more this way. Also, if he considers himself an artist first and a writer second, he may not have cared about which way got his point across better.
stacy said...That's a good point, EE.
Robin S. said...That makes sense to me.
Robin S. said...Stacy, I think he got his point across - but in all honesty, I'd rather have read about it. Sorry. What if Kafka lived now, and he wrote Metamorphosis as a graphic? Think he'd have ended up a literary icon?
Evil Editor said...Who?
Sarah Laurenson said...Maybe more younger men would've read it and the world would be totally different today.
Robin S. said...I think I'm a word dinosaur. At least I'm honest, though. Does that help at all? I think I need to read the Neil Gaiman GN's and see what I think then.
stacy said...Well, if anyone can change your mind, Robin, it's Gaiman.
Robin S. said...Stacy, I have an Amazon gift cert. Maybe I'll get one of those Gaiman ones and see. I really like his writing style. Never heard of the guy until last year - and then EE had the book on his list and you loved him and there you go. Now I do.
sylvia said...I absolutely feel that more boys will read a graphic novel than read a large chunk of text. I don't think his point would have been clearer to me in prose than it was in pictures.
Sarah Laurenson said...There are some graphic books that get the point across much better than they would as prose. Perhaps it's more open to interpretation in one form over the other.
Dave F. said...It is what it is, a graphic novel presented for both the eye and ear. It must be seen and read, whereas a regular novel only has to be heard aloud or read silently. Why do we read to children to help them learn?
Evil Editor said...And there are those who are more into art than lit. And who's to say Burns is a good enough writer to do this in novel form, any more than we have the artistic talent to do it in graphic form.
Sarah Laurenson said...I was tempted to make one of my WIPs into a graphic novel, but I'm not an illustrator. Makes it difficult.
Robin S. said... If you don't draw, don't people collaborate on these sometimes?
Sarah Laurenson said...Yeah, Robin, but it takes a lot of time and effort to do the graphics - on spec. I'm doing something else with that book now.
ril said...Thing is, I think it doesn't matter art / photography / literature / graphic novels / cinema / TV -- some is entertainment, some aims to evoke deeper thinking and meaning. All have their place and their value. Oh, and music too, sorry Stacy...
Robin S. said...Good point, ril. I suppose you read the earlier comments and saw me being a snob, eh? The thing is, I do think each has its place, and these 'places' all have/hold meaning for their respective 'receivers'. But that still, for me, doesn't mean that they all have equal weighting as art forms. Like velvet Elvis paintings aren't like feasting your eyes on a master's work.
stacy said...Yeah, but Robin, they're both still paintings. I think GNs and novels are different beasts altogether. It's hard to compare them, because, as EE said, some people care more about art than they do about words. I think in GNs, it's easy to care about both equally.
ril said...Like velvet Elvis paintings aren't like feasting you eyes on a master's work.
Kind of depends what exchange rate you use. Some people clearly value the latest episode of Two and a Half Men over anything monochrome by a Swedish director. If art is all about the interpreteation, it's tough to really challenge what they value...
stacy said...That's a good point, Ril.
sylvia said...I am sorry, I can't see the white wolves on black velvet as art. But I can see a corollary in terms of television vs film vs novel. All of them have the same premise, none of them tell quite the same story, it's not always clear which came first. I wouldn't like to try to rank them on merit scale.
ril said...But I can see a corollary in terms of television vs film vs novel. All of them have the same premise, none of them tell quite the same story, it's not always clear which came first. I wouldn't like to try to rank them on merit scale...
stacy said...I love a good action film, but is Avatar art? Are Robert Downey Jr.'s abs art? I don't know.
ril said...Not sure you need to. I don't see them as being in competition, other than, perhaps, for people's time.
Sarah Laurenson said...A nicely chiseled set of abs are definitely art.
sylvia said...OK, well, I'm going to be a bit of a snob but: There's a difference between "I like it" and "It's good." So I like french fries from McDonald's (god save me). I also am aware that there is no culinary talent that goes into making them. Even if I hadn't had the bad fortune to work for a fast food restaurant (actually, I worked for Burger King and the management swore we used much healthier food than McD's) I think I would know that these were not a culinary achievement. I don't like Borscht. That doesn't mean there isn't something special about it and it would be unreasonable for me to argue that food that I didn't like was distasteful. But that doesn't mean that I think everything I like is good.
Robin S. said...This is one helluva ride if you read these last ten or so posts in order. Love it.
Sarah Laurenson said...When The West Wing first came out, it was done more like a movie and the difference showed. Lost it after awhile though and it became just another TV show. Or maybe it boosted the overall quality of TV?
stacy said...Well, when Aaron Sorkin left the show, the writing just tanked and it became a bit of a parody of itself (IMHO). I do think the West Wing was art. Not only that, but I think it was a great educational tool in showing the public just how government actually works - all the wheeling and dealing. I just said in a review of Stuart Neville's Ghosts of Belfast that I think fiction can sometimes be a better teacher than the history books.
ril said...While "better" is subjective, I certainly would agree that more people know about their past through fiction than through non-fiction...
Sarah Laurenson said...Very true, Stacy. Fiction is used a lot as an educational tool. It's just that sometimes we authors have to learn how to hide that lesson really, really well.
stacy said... I think it all begs the question: What is art? Who am I to say the velvet Elvis isn't art when clearly there are people out there who do?
Sarah Laurenson said...I love books by certain authors but not all of those authors' books.
Sarah Laurenson said...I think it's a lot about what resonates with us at different points in time in our lives.
stacy said...I do agree there are some objective criteria, Sylvia.
Sarah Laurenson said...It doesn't sound like the lesson was hidden in this book, but it does sound like it wasn't exactly clear either. Probably the lesson each person takes away from it depends on their experiences.
Robin S. said...Agree with Sylvia and Sarah on the quality of certain things vs. others. Although they said it much better than I just did.
stacy said..."Better" is subjective, but that's been my experience. Apparently the politicians in Northern Ireland were once IRA, which meant they killed a lot - perhaps even indiscriminately - in their rise to power. That's something a news account wouldn't have likely given me.
Sylvia said...now you lost me entirely with that comparison because I don't know what's on TV. That's not to say your description was wrong at all - but from a resonating view, I was left echoing in a lonely manner. What I think is wrong (and this is me being judgmental) is if I were to say US series are BADBADBAD and as I don't know what you are referring to, clearly you are in the wrong. I think that if we are both gazing upon the white wolf painted on velvet, we can agree that your cousin thinks it is beautiful and I think it is not. (I wouldn't like to presume your viewpont) And I would ask whether she saw it as art. And if she told me how she didn't understand why anyone would line up to see the Mona Lisa, I would consider her words and value them accordingly. If she said "any old painting, never saw it" or even "there was a photoshop thing like it" then my process of evaluation would be pretty simplistic. So the fact that she saw the velvet picture as art isn't enough to make me accept it is art but her explanation thereof could make every difference in the world. Er, no offense to your cousin.
stacy said...That was actually an offshoot more than a comparison, Sylvia. I've been pretty stream of consciousness tonight. : ) Sorry to confuse!
Sarah Laurenson said...A lot of new styles of art didn't become acceptable until much later. Perhaps velvet paintings are the modern equivalent of the cubist movement.
What if someone new to Picasso saw some of those noses severely out of joint and shrugged it off as child's play? All art - including writing - is subjective.
ril said...Indeed, a Scotch Egg, sliced neatly through the middle, sitting on a simple, white, country plate. Now that's art. I agree that there are objective criteria to making and viewing art. DaVinci put hours and hours into studying the human form and therefore made paintings at which we still marvel today. Yet some people, subjectively speaking, would loathe the Mona Lisa. How much of that is the viewer's ignorance regarding form and composition in painting? How much of it is taste? I can't answer.
stacy said...OTOH, I also feel like those objective criteria sometimes contribute to people feeling as though they're supposed to like something they don't. So I also agree with Sarah. I can never make up my mind about these things. I guess I don't think art has to be one or the other.
Sarah Laurenson said...Should we like a piece of art because it just sold for millions of dollars? Hm. Hard to say No.
stacy said...I guess I think that while artists need objective criteria to make art (there are just certain things writers need to know in order to produce at all), all bets are off when that art makes it to the viewer/reader/listener. You can educate a person in classical music and there's a chance they'll still hate it (for example). So much of it boils down to taste.
ril said...One thing is sure, you can't tell other people what they should value...
